this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2025
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But the people who stayed home because the democrats didn't offer them a pony are noble and should be regarded with the utmost respect!
But you haven't thought of how clean their hands are.
"Didn't offer them a pony" doesn't equate to "stop funding a genocide in Israel". This level of callousness is exactly why people stayed home
If they thought genocide in Israel was bad, why did they make it worse and global?
If they cared about human rights, they'd be defending human rights. People who make matters worse out of spite are not the good guys. I wish they at least owned their awfulness instead of crying all over social media how people blame them for the things they actually did, when they themselves happily boasted about it just a month ago.
People didn't abstain from spite, they abstained from a correct belief that the system doesn't work for them, or they couldn't vote against their conscience. Your own framing of lesser evilism and weighting voting more than other kinds of political activity inevitably creates the situation where people can't just cast a vote strategically. You dismiss 3/4 of the picture in order to make a point based on only 1/4 of the information, in other words, you are distorting the truth to fit your narrative.
Politics often comes down to a struggle between two views, but your attempt to shunt anyone who didn't vote the way you did into some enemy category is, predictably, no strategy at all. Unless your strategy is to divide the electorate, which sort of defeats your entire premise.
Actually try to understand other people as having minds and wills of their own, rather than narcissistically making your own view the objective one (like a religion might) and then condemning others (like a religion might) for their sins.
Their not voting created this situation in the first place. They wanted this situation. People who are hurt by this situation are rather justified in hating the people who put them into it. You say it's because these people choose to do this on their own, because of their own free will. I agree with you on this. But THEIR justification in creating this situation does not fucking matter to others. It does not matter if somebody stabs you in the back because they hate you or because they are trying to make a point or out of boredom or out of some philosophical whatnot, what matters to you is that you have a knife sticking out of your back and bleeding to death. And when you turn around, what you see is your attacker crying a river about their right to stab you and why are you blaming them? It's not like THEY hate you like THOSE other guys!
Fact is that if they voted for the other side, they would have a perfectly stable democracy (lol, not really) where they could then campaign for stuff they want without the world being on fire around them. Which btw, they aren't doing with the word being on fire around them either, but if they did it now, they'd be wiped off it by the powers they put into place.
Your "leaders" created this situation in the first place by refusing to even acknowledge the concerns of those voters, much less address them.
It would be far more reasonable for a handful of Democrat Party leaders to move their position in a handful of subjects to address grave moral concerns of millions of their natural voters than for them to expect than they could get the votes of all the millions for whom those things were important without conceding an inch on those subjects.
Want to see who gave the election to Trump on a platter: look inside the Democrat Party.
You are entitled to hate whoever you like, but hate doesn't make you right. In fact it might be altering your judgement just a little.
I think its a little dishonest to collapse everything down to this one moment, that decides the moral standing of a person, whether they are for or against the movement to defeat trump and the criminal right wing. Its important to take into considerations what came before, at least, not to mention that the country is a big diverse place largely controlled by private interests. If you aren't out here trying to educate people and wanna sit on the sidelines and judge others I won't stop you, but IMO you really have very little right to judge when the time comes.
It's not dishonest. This election was a vote between the status quo and outright fascism. If you didn't vote against fascism, you supported it.
There's no nuance here. Your reasons don't matter. If you didn't vote against the guy who straight up said he would be a dictator, you're culpable for the situation we're in now.
You people treat this like it's some zero sum game. The democrats did screw the pooch, but so did the people who didn't vote to stop fascism. Both can be true.
That's exactly what you're doing. Ignoring how much worse the situation is if you abstain from voting because you're focused on the lesser evil. Even on Gaza Trump said he wants to "clean it all out". Even on this issue the greater evil is worse. Stop pretending there was anything noble about letting that monster have power again. The system doesn't work so they let an even worse one take over and people who abstained or protest voted bear some of that responsibility for the consequences
I don't frame questions in terms of lesser/greater evil. I actually don't need religious concepts at all to understand this situation, all I have to do is listen to people and remember what came before.
You're so divorced from reality that there are no actual people who you are condemning, you're just mad at some strawman constructed by the party that humiliated itself, for it was the democrats failures that lost. You're buying into a ridiculous narrative that deflects all crit away from the democrats and puts it in some strawmen. It's like conservatives with their woke washing of all politics, or bad faith liberals and "tankie".
And to be clear, I don't agree with people who abstained to vote, I did not abstain to vote. and I didn't encourage anyone to abstain. I am very politically active and fundamentally agree with your logic. However...
What I despise is the scapegoating and strawmanning that is just endlessly regurgitated on this site.
Hitler was appointed as the lesser evil according to the liberal government that appointed him.
Lesser evilism is the most evil option in all scenarios.
So far, Gaza is infinitely better than it was previously. Colleagues are seeing less people at a clinic in the south, with a lot of displaced people returning north. They even returned to checkout an office up north and assess the damage. Sure, it's not fine / okay, they are returning to rubble, no schools and no hospitals, but the ceasefire is holding for now.
https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-netanyahu-set-pivotal-talks-middle-east-agenda-2025-02-04/ ooooooffffff your comment did not age well
What, because he said some stupid shit? Just as he said he will use force to take over Canada, Mexico and Greenland? I'm saying how shit looks right now from the pov of people in Gaza, working as doctors. Till actual military actions happen, there is a working ceasefire that Biden was unable to push through.
Yes. Declaring to the world that the US wants to relocate Palestinians from the area is worse than the Dems policy. That's right. And again Biden could not get a ceasefire because Netenyahu was intentionally keeping it going to help Trump's election. Getting people to abstain or protest vote is exactly what Netenyahu's goal was.
I can declare myself the emperor of mankind and it doesn't mean people will give me all of the resources in the world. Every country in the Middle East says "fuck that". Every country in Europe says "fuck that". I'll believe it when it actually starts happening. And since Trump isn't a magical king of the US to be able to do everything he wants as a despot, it won't happen. The reality of it is - under Biden, Gaza was bombed. Right now it isn't. Saying "oh that's just because they waited till Trump" then god damn it, put PRESSURE on them to stop. Don't sit back sending them weapons, wiggling a finger. Biden fucking sucked when it came to Gaza. Openly said he is a zionist. Openly said he promised his dad to always go with Israel. He supported the genocide till the very last day. So no, fuck Biden and fuck democrats for standing idly by.
Weird you use that logic to defend Trump and then reverse it to attack Biden. And if you don't want to think about the reality of "why?" and just look at what is then it makes a lot of sense why you're so manipulatable
Cool, so we are now at the ad hominem stage, fuck me for saying what actually happens. I judge what's on the ground and I have an intimate knowledge of it from my coworkers and the background of what I do. I see less people at the clinic. I see people moving back. I see people checking out locations in the north they weren't able to go to. I see liveua and all incidents disappearing. But apparently, it was better with Biden, when that wasn't the case. When people were getting killed all the time. So yeah, I'm the manipulated one. Instead, the democrats were 100% for Gaza. Kamala went "I'm talking now" to then say "We'll liberate Gaza", bombed Tel Aviv, hanged Netanyahu off a tree and the ceasefire has been in effect for a year in a half now, with everyone singing "kumbayaa" together.
Jesus fuck dude. Right now the people got a respite and that is infinitely better than supporting an ongoing genocide. Till bullets start flying again, then we can talk again. I won't support someone that let genocide happen. Back then, everyone said "there won't be a ceasefire at all and every president, Kamala or Trump, will not let it happen" and yet there it is. And saying "oh Biden would totally get a ceasefire" is the manipulation - because he had the opportunity and didn't. He had all the measures to pressure for it, but didn't. So spare me your "ur manipulated lmaaaao" when you have a pattern of behavior on one side, and a year and some of inacton, and a ceasefire on the other.
When you are so thoroughly incapable of addressing an argument's points,ad hominem is no longer a fallacy, you are in fact the problem.
Every bit as relevant as you being a dumb shit. Your experiences do not change the merit of your options thoughts, or lack there of. And no we do not credit trump for a ceasefire in his first week anymore than we credit a president for the economy in their first week because there's is very obviously a lag and complexity in cause and effect. That it moronically reductive. So yes I will continue to point to how fucking stupid you are
Except for the tiny fact that Trumps envoys were there a month prior and the ceasefire is literally the exact same as it was in October, when dems were "in charge". It's obvious you don't want to admit anything good about Trump so you revert to insults and disparaging other peoples' experiences. I love it how my knowledge of what's literally happening on the ground in Gaza is somehow completely invalid as if it is a personal anecdote. You are literally trying to gaslight me and tell me that Gaza with a ceasefire in force that is actually working is somehow worse off than it was with Biden in power when there were bullets flying. And then you call me "fucking stupid" because you know that you are in the wrong here. There is no arguing that democrats were pro Gaza. There is no arguing that there is a ceasefire that's here thanks to Trump. And despite me hating the orange fuck, I can admit that. But you seem completely incapable of doing it, the cognitive dissonance just doesn't let your hateful thoughts die down to admit that people right now are safer than they were previously.
So now you're trying to say Trump gets credit for a ceasefire when he wasn't even president and want to ignore completely that he has incentive to keep the genocide going and you think him having discussions with Israel in MAY is evidence he was ending it, not extending it? After which he says he wants to relocate them to neighboring countries and you want to give him credit? Holy fuck you are truly incomprehensibly stupid
A month ago isn't "May" last time I checked, but okay. He said straight up, that he will be trying to get a ceasefire before he goes into office. He sent out envoys recently. The ceasefire deal is the exact same as it was in October, when it was rejected (and not rejected by Palestine).
I cannot spell it out more clearly. You judge by what he says ignoring that Biden said he himself is a zionist and the promises he made to his dad, both easily checkable things. You are ignoring dems refusing to let in Palestinian speakers during their conference. You are ignoring the silencing of pro Palestinian voices. As I said - so far there is a ceasefire in force, and it wasn't Biden that got it.
I'm tired of saying the exact same thing. Insult me if it lets you sleep better at night. The reality doesn't change with you refusing to admit that democrats are / were supporting genocide and the situation flipped the second they weren't in power anymore.
Netenyahu kept it going to help Trump. This ceasefire was coming regardless when there was no reason to keep it going
Furhermore, Trump and the Oligarchs have yet to seize the good parts of Gaza for their own. That's coming.
BlueAnon
I'm getting so tired of liberals who spend all their time complaining about people not supporting their preferred genocidaire instead of demanding candidates that aren't aspiring genocidaires.
It is the candidate's job to win the election, not the electorate's. If the anti-genocide voting bloc was enough to swing the election (it wasn't) then maybe your candidate shouldn't have supported a fucking genocide in spite of that.
The US style "Liberals" seem to be incredibly subservient, prefering to blame millions of people for not chosing their "boss" rather than the "boss" for not even trying to appeal to those people.
All the talk of the supposedly Go Getter and Independent spirit in America and yet around here we are faced with an overwhelming amount of American arse-kissers who are seemingly unable to even conceive that maybe, just maybe, "the boss" was the one who did things the wrong way, causing millions to refuse to chose them and hence has most of the blame for the outcome.
On the upside, watching this is a wonderful opportunity to learn a lot about the evils of people being mindless unchallenging followers of "Leaders" in Politics.