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Stay on message, Democrats! Remember, it wasn't the Democrats fault for losing, it was those loony leftists for going against the approved narrative of the Democratic Party. The Dems aren't out of touch or negligent, and Bill Mahr is funny and relevant.
God the comments suck on this post
Do you think maybe there can be more than one source of culpability for things in this universe?
I think the problem is so many people trying to politically point score by whitewashing a bunch of Genociders by using the actions of a new bunch of Genociders.
"Yeah, but our guys' mass murdering of children was all fairies and unicorns shitting rainbows from their arses whilst those other guys' Genocide is all dark and shit" isn't the Grand Principled argument the tribalists seem to think it is.
It's kind of understandable that anybody with enough Principle in their bodies to trump tribalism is a "little" peeved at people excusing any group of willful and eager collaborators in the mass murder of children, be it the previous bunch or the new bunch.
Seems like the problem in this thread is a bunch of people trying to politically point score by not giving a shit that Trump is moving forward with this because they'd rather condemn people who are not in power and may never be in power again.
I see very little condemnation of Trump and a lot of "Genocide Joe would have done the same thing."
And fuck the Palestinians, they're just a tool in this from what I can tell from such people. How many "Genocide Joe" people here not bothering to condemn Trump have ever even talked to a Palestinian?
Re-read the posts: plenty of people who criticize Biden are also criticizing Trump.
I can't speak for others but I personally am not constantly criticizing Trump because their is no lack of criticizing Trump here so it's not a problem I feel I need to address in my comments, much less do it all the time.
It's the whitewashing of the actions of Genociders that I feel is a problem so my comments are directed at that, and in this thread so far I've only seen the actions of one bunch of Genociders be whitewashed, and that's the Biden bunch.
If this was 4chan I'm sure there would be plenty of comments whitewashing Trump's actions that I would feel the need to counter.
You need to re-read my posts because you are still doing what I am saying, not giving a shit about what is going to happen to Palestinians because you're too busy continuing to argue about an election that was decided months ago.
What have you actually done to try to stop this genocide?
Mainly spreading awareness of what's going and exposing the flawed logic and lies in pro-Israeli propaganda since the very start and pointing out the hypocrisy of those who empower the Genociders by supporting politicians who knowingly and actively give them military support. (To the point that I've actually received e-mails in my native language from a Tel Aviv based organisation inviting me to a "learn about Israel" web course, which is funny 'cause I've never published my e-mail address here)
I'm also a member of a small party in the country I live in which is very loudly against the Israeli Occupation and the Israeli Genocide.
I keep on hammering against the whitewashing of the Democrat Genociders because their actions help normalized the support of Genocide and extreme racism in the US - they're supposed to be an alternative to the likes of Trump, the opposite not the "almost the same but a tiny bit less bad".
Democrats are supposed to walk towards Less Evil, thus opening up a political gap in the middle that also pulls the Republicans over towards Less Evil, but instead Democrats are walking towards More Evil, effectively making the baseline of American politics be Quite A Lot Of Evil and worsening, and supporting the normalization and even increasing extremism of the Evil in the Republican Party.
This isn't about the Present, because that war is lost and all that people have left is Resistance (and me not being in US means I can't be part of that), this is about the Future - if the Democrat leadership comes around to accept that their only chance is to actually be the opposite of Trump in actions, fighting for actual Principles, rather than merely be the slightly dissenting performative voice, then there is hope for improvement otherwise (as indicated by Trumps reelection after what he did last time in office) America is condemned to a cycle of presidents like Trump and worse.
People whitewashing Genocide-support as long as it's done by Democrats ain't gona push the Democrat leadership to start moving towards Less Evil.
"Spreading awareness." So getting on the internet and talking shit. Big fucking deal.
Have you spent even five minutes sending a form email and making a phone call? No, apparently not. You can very easily contact politicians in other countries, but you'd rather just sit on your ass and berate people.
And you are the one whitewashing genocide here. You have not spent two seconds discussing what is going to happen to Palestinians and you clearly don't care since they're just pawns in your game.
Re-read my post.
I'm actually in a political party that actually fights against that shit, busy campaigning in elections, participating in party conferences and even manning election booths, not busy whitewashing the Genocide support of my favored pro-Genocide political party whilst sending letters to a leadership that couldn't give a rat's arse about what I think because I'm supporting them where it counts no matter how evil they act, so they have no reason to change tack away from Evil-doing.
By providing comfort and support to politicians that militarilly support an ongoing Genocide, you're indirectly supporting Genocide, at the very least because those politicians won't change if they're supported not mater what, so you're making sure they remain supporting Genocide whenever they have a chance.
Absolutelly, compliment the leadership of your party on the things they do right (not merelly what they say) AND chastise them on the things they do wrong like supporting the mass murder of children because they're from a "human animal" ethnicity.
I'm starting to think the difference between us is that I'm driven by Principle - I don't live in America, I don't live in Palestine, I'm safelly in Europe on the opposite side of the continent from Russia, I could just ignore the butchering in Palestine or the butchering in Ukraine because, hey, "I'm Alright Jack", but I won't because that shit is wrong, and I don't mean just a bit wrong, I mean "getting way too close to Nazi-level wrong" - whilst you are driven by the fear of what can happen to your daughter in Trump's America, which is understandable but is not Principle, it's all about you and yours - a selfish reason, not just taking an stand on principle without gaining anything from it.
Maybe that's why I can't stand Mass Murderers, Genociders, Xenophobes and those who enable them, whilst you run around excusing them and thus doing your bit to enable them to carry on doing what they do - as long as they give you what you want for you and yours, You're Alright and fuck the rest!
"I support a political party" means you don't have to do any work. I spend hours on this, you don't do shit.
And if you're driven by principle, where's your principle of doing something rather than just berating people and voting? Because it's clear you're not motivated enough to take action on this despite your claim of hating genocide.
Also, who am I comforting and supporting? Name them. Unless that's a lie. Is it a lie?
Edit: That's what I thought, no answers, just downvotes.
Right, you believe whatever fantasy you want about me whilst ignoring what I actually wrote.
You're all over the threads here berating people who dare criticize the Democrat Party Leadership for supporting the Genocide. That's supporting said Democrat Party Leadership on that specific subject - whilst you don't say you're in favor of the Genocide, you're definitelly implying that their support for the Genocide "isn't all that bad", hence indirectly you're supporting the Genocide.
If you can't see how defending their actions (even if only by framing them as "Trump is worse", as if Evil-doing is alright as long as somebody else is even more Evil) is giving them the comfort of knowing they can stay their course and remain in power within the Democrat Party (and, once every 4 or 8 years, get their hands on the power of the State), then I suggest you relocate some of those hours to reading books on Psychology, maybe get a part-time office job in a big company (try Finance, it's full of Sociopaths so pretty close to the upper echelons of a major political party) and get familiar with how that kind of people think because you're definitelly just another useful idiot from their point of view.
You're playing Defense for the kind of people who, if you had any Principles, you would be trying to get replaced, so de facto you're supporting them.
Saying nothing either way would've been a more neutral position with regards to the Genocide than playing defense for people supporting a Genocide with weapons and ammo.
(Seemingly) unlike you, even in the party I am a member of I am critical of the leadership when they do wrong things, because I'm there not for the love of the party, I'm there because my principles align with the ones of the party, for the purpose of fighting for those principles, and that does include criticizing the party leadership when they stray away from those principles. I did the same thing back when I lived in Britain and was a member of the Green Party over there.
I don't have tribe loyalty nor am I (nowadays) deferential to the "leaders" (having actually met them, in my mind they're human rather than celebrities, and speaking with the local member of parliament when we were campaigning was quite the eye openner), so my points are entirelly guided by Principle.
From your posts it looks a lot like tribalism guides your points more than Principle.
I read everything you wrote. You said you have done nothing that takes any effort whatsoever.
But you do make it clear that you care a whole hell of a lot more about American politics than you do Palestinians. Being a member of a party means nothing. Anyone can join a party. It takes seconds.
Also, this is just a lie:
What I am saying and not implying is that this political argument is totally unimportant and has been since November. Meanwhile you have done nothing to help Palestinians that requires you to get off your ass.
American politics is what's at the one end of the chain of things which at the other end is causing the situation on Palestine to be what it is.
It sure isn't going to be my home nation of Portugal that forces a change in the actions of Israel when there is bipartisan "unwavering" support in the United States for the Genocide.
All I can do is get involved in Politics locally and fight against it here (which I am doing!) including fighting for maximum decoupling from the US by the EU, and get on my soap box and criticize Genociders and these explicitly and tacically supporting them, wherever they are, all the while tribalist types playing defense for "their" bunch of Genocide supporters criticize me for "caring about politics".
I don't care about any of the parties in the US political system on their own, I care about what your country is doing that affects everybody (even people in America) and that means I care about the normalization of defending evil-doers in America "as long as they're our guys" because that just leads to even more evil doing in America and from America - if you think the Past is bad and the Present is worse, imagine a Future were the Sociopaths at the top of the Democrat Party have also (alongside the Republican sociopaths) concluded that if ethno-Fascism in Israel and Palestine if fine and does not impact btheir chances at electoral success, then it's fine too in America - get really familiar with that scenario because that's what chosing lesser evil with no dissent mathematically leads to given enough cycles when there is no upper bound for greater evil.
If tomorrow you guys turned extreme isolationist and stopped interfering in the rest of the World go right ahead and do whatever the fuck you want with your politics: stop the collateral damage of your polical system like the mass murder of innocent children half a World anyway and nobody outside the US will have reason to care about all the defending of "our guys" doing Evil going on over there and how that defense today will cause more Evil with effects all over the World tomorrow.
If it wasn't for the 340 million human beings over there most of whom would not deserve it, the US disappearing from the face of the planet tomorrow would be a good thing, but since that's not going to happen (and ultimately, for the sake of those 340 million human beings, should never happen) all that's left is to somehow do what little a non-American in a distant land can do to influence American politics away from the whole tendency for Evil, and that's limited try and convince people on the Democrat Party to ditch the Evildoers from their leadership positions, since that sure ain't going to happen in the Republican Party.
Had I've been an American in America I would've been involved in politics at the local level by now because that's the only way the Democrat Party can get cleaned up - from bottom to top - but I'm not and YOU demanding that I do something which I have no power to do and stop doing the only thing I have the power to do, is fucked up and shows a lack of awareness of other people's constraints.
Well, the truth can sting a little if you've just found out you've been fooled. The important thing is to grow up and learn from your mistake.
Well you sure showed those democrats by not voting huh? Like shooting yourself but calling it a win because you got blood on the other guy.
The American left has become so toxic, and splintered into micro groups with special labels who all hate each other and reject each other's support while blaming each other and calling anyone even slightly right or even left of you an enemy. Meanwhile the right was united while trump and Netanyahu played you all so blatantly and obviously and you all bought it.
Well I’m sure Gazans thank you American leftists for staying home and letting trump win. I’m sure your blaming democrats will make them feel better
Sadly you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you're voting you're supporting the status quo of the Dems really only listening to corporate backers, if you're not voting you're letting the opposition (Trump) have a better chance at office (which he did get). They're both terrible options, and I'm not sure blaming individuals who are tired of having to fight for the lesser evil instead of a better tomorrow is fair
Are you suggesting that material conditions can be contradictory, moving people to make different, equally rational, decisions for conflicting reasons, rather than just being two camps that define all moral obligations as the opposite of the other?
Someone should look into this
I did vote, but I was also trying to tell people that the whole strategy of browbeating wasn't going to work. But that's all the dems have to offer which is why they lost.
Someone was telling you this shit was going to happen and there was only one way to even have a chance of preventing it. You decided compromise was for losers and are now reaping the rewards of your ill informed, short sighted decision. Why are you whining so much, you got exactly what you were told you would get.
So did you! You got exactly what we told you was going to happen, yet its our fault it happened. Look at this post! This whining is on your side my dude. I just can't believe you fools didn't stop with the brow beating after such a catastrophic loss. Couldn't do one fraction of a second of self reflection. I was not telling people not to vote for the democrat, but I didn't hide my real feelings either.
A movement to withhold votes against Democrats has been building for years. the uncommitted movement is ideologically closer to liberal democrats than so called tankies, but Dems threw them under the bus, called them Putin influenced for protesting against a genocide in the only way they knew how. I was fighting for Palestinian liberation in different ways, I don't really get too involved in electoral politics though I'm active politically. Never was I whining. God what projection.
It really demonstrates the two tendencies of liberalism: good conscientious people who are cool and hate injustice, vs. bloodless defenders of private capital who make noises like they care about justice so they can take power and broker influence.
Get a grip, do some actual criticism of your movement, do better for christs sakes. There wouldn't be nearly as many communists and anarchists becoming radicalized if democrats were even a little effective. They are the only force that has the power to oppose the fascists and criminals in charge of the republicans. and they blew it, time and time again. Stop blaming the people, the fucking lemmy posters for Christ sakes, and start looking at your party,and namely where they get their funding.
this may require you to read and process information instead of just repeating what some 68 year old millionaire said. Which may take some growth on your part, so maybe hydrate and stretch a little first.
I'm not defending the party, the movement, the history, the people or their choices. I'm pointing out that no one wanted to hold their nose to vote and now we're all swimming in shit.
Downvote me all you want. No amount of political theory will make the math go away. Every single person who decided to not vote, or to vote for catharsis, was a helping hand pushing Trump's ass into the oval office.
Yes, the Democrats pissed you off, yes you should have still voted for them.
Its a hell of a situation we are in, but abstracting this one political act away from the movement, the people, their choices, the history behind it all, is the only reason you are able to look at the situation in such a limited way.
I believe you, that you want to get your intentions or beliefs untangled from whatever schemes political and economic elites are cooking. It is a great tragedy that people didn't vote to keep Trump out. But if you want your individual beliefs to stand on their own and hold water on their own, then you have to extend the same courtesy to conscientious uncommitted voters.
For months people told me I was a bot for daring to suggest Biden was too old to run. Then that view was vindicated too late, and when progressives wanted to get in line behind Kamala, it was made pretty clear that other than uncomfortable noises and "concerns" about the genocide, money and weapons were still going to flow. Do you understand that this lesser evil messaging was doomed to fail? millions of voices on the left who are in no way hoping for another trump term were warning exactly this, and were silenced, not to mention beaten, arrested, kicked out of school or worse for daring to put their bodies on the line for Palestinians?
Maybe ask yourself why the most progressive stripe of voters withheld their vote, while millions of others just didn't think, maybe wrongly, that it would affect them either way. Was there a conspiracy by Russia and other countries? I mean its been established, I think, that a great deal of this goes on. So let me ask you: in this situation, where democracy is being attacked from without and within, night and day by well funded and well organized forces, do you think that a mere vote every 4 years or so is enough to actually prevent the degeneration of a democracy? Or might it take quite a bit more effort? Second question: have the democrats proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth that vote, so that the critical mass of rational and conscientious people in this country would not have grounds to doubt their commitment to restoring democracy and overcoming fascism?
My answer to both questions is no. This does not make me naive or idiotic, but I'm afraid that is how I am made to feel, made to seem, by the mainstream of the Democratic party. And so were hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of other Americans whose conscience would not allow a vote for genocide.
The oppression of the Palestinian people didn't begin on oct7, let's not pretend that Democrats werent culpable before and after. Therefore there is good reason to doubt the dems would have influenced any meaningful change in the conflict
The only political act that was being asked of the millions who didn't vote was to vote. That's the only political act that matters in this contact. It's the lowest possible bar in a democracy. Show up, check a box. I get that it sucks, but this, what we have now, is going to be so much worse.
Just to sum up my point: The system is rigged hard against any kind of progressivism. The left might be able to influence a Democrat, it absolutely will not influence a Republican, and a third party has absolutely zero chance of getting elected.
If third parties want clout, they have to build it from the ground up, and that means money in a capitalist system. Where's all the third party money that's going to help defeat the established parties? It doesn't exist.
Again, I'm not celebrating his reality, I'm only pointing out that it's always been that way and opting out of having a voice isn't going to do shit to change it.
Not voting is hurting the people we care about, all for the sake of feeling better about yourself.
A system that restrict democracy to checking a box every 4 years while silencing peaceful opposition calling for peace, is not a democracy it is tyranny. You won't be able to sell tyranny to me as democracy. And every cycle that the deep political corruption at the heart of the Democrats exposes itself for what it is, more and more people see it for what it is.
They didn't create these contradictions, neither did you and neither did I. But many people are responsible and benefit directly from the carnage. And your plan to oppose them is to stay dumb and stand in line every 4 years.
I said it elsewhere, but it just shows the divide in the Democrats between the progressives and the establishment. The fact that you've resigned to a single unconscionable viewpoint doesn't mean that other people are stupid for going the opposite way. The Palestinian people have been the victims of liberal pragmatism for 75 years. I know you want to collapse all morality and ethics into a single moment when a ballot is cast, but seriously don't you think that view is somewhat convenient for the establishment? Is this the society you want to take part in and participate in?
No its not, you dread to do it but once every 2-4 years as a matter of duty. But people who don't subscribe to your sense of moral duty, no different than the enemy right? Cant you see how self defeating it all is?
State level electoral reform so people can vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect
Preventing what? A genocide?
Harris was all on board with it.