To follow-up on the Reddit thread yesterday, here are a few elements that can be interesting to discuss.
Link to specific instances and apps rather than just saying Lemmy
Just quoting "Lemmy" or pointing to join-lemmy.org can lead to a very unintuitive and clunky experience, as people can just end up randomly on a very small and/or outdated instance. Recent post by a new joiner 9 days ago, they had to change server 2 times to get a satisfying experience: https://lemmy.world/post/24220536.
Using something like
"Lemmy has 42k monthly active users
- https://discuss.online/ if you want a server located in the USA (content is still accessible from any server, the most difference latency)
- https://sopuli.xyz/ if you want a server located in the EU
- https://vger.app/ if you want an app
Feel free if you have any questions"
Can already point them in one direction, and avoid them getting lost in the too many options.
If people want to debate the choice of those two instances, I'll add my thought process in the comments.
The Lemmy feed looks as depressing as Reddit's All, and how to mitigate that
Some feedback I received when promoting Lemmy the way above
Just checked out lemmy to see if it’s different from reddit. Im very disappointed lmao.
First post I see is a comic about cultural appropriation with an ifunny watermark. Next are several posts about the proton vpn ceo “going full maga.” And finally a post I saw on Reddit days ago that is ragebait making fun of the cybertruck.
Yikes. It’s the same exact thing.
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Lemmy still has a pretty obnoxious tankie problem. Even if you block the .ml instance, pretty much every thread about US politics or world news on any major instance gets hijacked by the same handful of trolls and their associated vote bots. Hopefully this will become less of a problem as more sane people join, but just as a word of caution, be aware that you will be called western imperialist scum by a bunch of 14 year olds.
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Lemmy is utter rubbish, it's as if their entire userbase consists of the top layer of scum carefully siphoned off from the Reddit cesspool. It got the worst of the annoying political echo chamber and "very smart" argumentative users from Reddit.
I just clicked on half a dozen random Lemmy servers, and all of them had at least one link about Trump in the top 5 posts. Even ones that seem like they're supposed to be about tech.
Normal humans want the Reddit of 10+ years ago back. We don't want to use a different site colonized by the same modern day Redditors we loathe interacting with.
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To be fair, you can't say they're wrong. Open https://discuss.online , by default you'll be set on All - Active. Out of the first 9 posts you see, 8 are about T or M, the last one being a meme.
What I try to do in such instances is to give something like
"While politics are important, you can still very much block them. Here are an example of some communities that can interest you:
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/post/15026558 for 20 non-political communities"
I also wrote a long post about that issue that you can read here https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1fmuk7o/post_to_address_the_usual_criticism_about_lemmy/
As a side note, I recently started a discussion on [email protected] about a potential political-free instance for new joiners, feel free to have a look: https://feddit.org/post/6819084
Lemmy is too small, 42k monthly active users is nothing
Discuit, the centralized alternative to Reddit, currently counts 181 weekly active commenters: https://discuit.net/DiscuitMeta/post/NlAdOWAp
You can also mention that NodeBB is now federating with Lemmy:
- https://feddit.org/post/7035166?scrollToComments=true
- https://community.nodebb.org/topic/71fe3f89-361c-4716-a79e-de02f94b3113/test-from-lemmy-to-nodebb
That's all for now, happy to discuss in the comments.
Note: if you're not interested in promoting Lemmy, feel free to hide this post, you are able to do this on specific posts if your instance is running 0.19.4 and newer
Content is King. You can have a good chunk of people that manage to go through the UX issues, they will still leave if they don't find what they want. The mirror bots (alien.top, lemmit.online) were meant to help with that, but the people here would rather complain about the post volume instead of learning how to follow only the subscribed communities.
Painless onboarding is second. Fediverser is meant to help with that, but no other admin has shown interest in adopting it.
A clear way to find-what-goes-where is third. My proposal to separate user/local instances from topic-based instances has been rejected here, even after I offered to put them under the governance of a wider admin group.
Now, I'm tired of this culture and small thinking. Fine if you want to be proselytizing and convincing people "at retail", but this will not be nearly as impactful if we had a dozen people who had the courage to setup a Lemmy instance with Fediverser.
PieFed solves all of that. It isn't quite ready for the non-technical masses from Reddit, but those particular issues at least it does solve.
I kinda want to recommend people to simply visit https://piefed.social/ and see what will eventually become available as a standard Threadiverse software suite just like Lemmy and Mbin.
Sorry, what about PieFed specifically solves the issues?
I sincerely don't see how piefed relates to Fediverser at all...
@[email protected] No, I don't there's any overlap between PieFed and Fediverser either. The potential of Fediverser seems like it got cut off at the knees by how widely defederated alien.top is.
Not Fediverser per se but the underlying concepts. In detail:
Here, PieFed is no better nor worse than Lemmy. It uses ActivityPub to connect with Lemmy, as well as having its own communities, like Mbin (except unlike the latter it doesn't have its own separate voting system, nor does it federate with Mastodon).
One thing PieFed does have though is the ability for someone to block all users from a particular instance of their choice, without requiring admin approval. This helps SO MUCH for certain instances that nobody wants to defederate from... yet I don't want to read content from either.
There is a wizard where you choose what content you want to see - News, Politics, Arts & Craft, Technology, Movies & TV, Science, etc. - which then signs you up to communities in those Topic areas. You can later unsubscribe or subscribe to any individual communities that you wish, but the wizard helps the onboarding process so that you don't have to simply stare at All bc your Subscribed feed is initially empty, as Lemmy does, bc on PieFed it would not be empty. It thus makes it much easier to find less prominent content, such as poetry, that would otherwise get swamped out by all the memes and politics and such.
There are Categories of Communities that combine posts from all of the topic areas, whether you joined those communities or not. So if you don't want any politics filling your feed, yet you occasionally do want to look up something related to politics, it is just one click away. So not quite mapping specifically to Reddit subs, but yes mapping to content areas - which imho is so much better, bc that would also help someone migrating not just from Reddit but from X, or Bluesky, or Mastodon, or Lemmy, etc. You don't need an account to see this feature btw - just visit https://piefed.social/ and look at the top.
Or here is an example post showing the Categories above the post, hashtags below it, YouTube embedding of the link, a link to watch that rather on Piped, and if you scroll down note how the sidebar text appears below every single post (some apps make that exceedingly difficult to find on Lemmy, but it's very often helpful to see not just when on the community page, and rather when in an individual post, e.g. to read the rules).
No, there are extremely few instances so far and the whole project is still in late alpha as it adds features to catch up to Lemmy, although as detailed above it already has many features that Lemmy lacks. And I didn't even begin to get into some of the best thoughts for how to democratize moderation practices to rely less on authoritarian control of "remove" vs. "allow" content, by expanding upon those binary choices to include user options to control their own experience - e.g. automatically collapse any comment with >20 downvotes (though it can easily be uncollapsed with one click), and labels next to usernames (e.g. "account <2 weeks old", "may be an unregistered bot account that posts but never comments", "controversial user receiving >50x downvotes than upvotes", etc. - except these are icons not words as I relate here, plus you can add your own icons whenever and to whoever you wish, that only you will see, on top of these conditional-based ones), and even more than this besides.
When it catches up to feature parity with Lemmy, damn it's going to be so exciting! Right now it's more of a future thought, except I (who know how to fall back to Lemmy when the occasion demands, e.g. when searching for a post) already use it as my primary daily driver - not that I would recommend that mind you, just saying that it's possible, if that gives you any indication as to how close it is to being ready for the masses. It's very close, I do believe!:-)
The onboarding by topics is good, okay. For someone that is coming from Reddit, it would be even better if the the subscription was automatic and without having to think about it.
The other two, I think they improve the tooling a bit compared to Lemmy but they do not solve the problem of the Fediverse: content is still limited outside of the news/politics and that Federation makes it confusing to give a reference point when looking for content.
But overall, I think we keep making the mistake of building decentralized social media software focused on the server, replicating the corporate sites. We should be thinking about "switching instances", but simply of switching/improving clients.
It's been too long, but there might be a way to click all at once or some such. But those are details, compared to Lemmy that has All or None (and empty Subscribed), with nothing whatsoever in-between. It's a step in the right direction I am saying.
Nothing will ever entirely "solve" anything at all - people even on Reddit complain about "lack of content". There's tons of content here though, it just gets really difficult to find it. However, check out this link for Arts & Crafts. There are lots and lots of posts there - PieFed shows like 5x more in a listing than Lemmy - virtually none of which would make their way to All bc of being swamped out, and yet if that is the content that people are TRULY looking for... this brings them straight to it, with one click! Why isn't that a "solve", at least for the issue of content discovery?
Then they can subscribe to the communities they want to see in their Subscribed feed, which is less relevant due to being able to use those Categories. Also you can trigger a Notification for anything at all on PieFed - a user account, a community, a post, and I especially love seeing that you can turn OFF notifications for a particular comment, if abusive trolls decide to spam you for WEEKS and WEEKS afterwards, which is a real story that has happened to me at least twice on Lemmy, once on hexbear.net and another on lemmygrad.ml - in either case, my consent ceased long before they eventually got tired of harassing me (in fairness, that is supposedly what communities such as [email protected] are for, so it's not that I want the community to cease to exist so much as to not have its content promoted as if it were adopting the same standards of behavior as every other space that I was used to across the Fediverse, without at least a warning of some kind delivered, which is yet another beneficial capability that PieFed offers).
So in addition to Categories and Subscriptions, I also have Notifications sent to me for lesser-trafficked but highly desirable content for me to see like [email protected]. And sometime this year there will be yet another method of handling all of this, in user-defined topic areas like a Favorites or other category of content that the user asks to be separated from all the rest.
And respectfully I disagree, bc depending on implementation, Categories of Communities has the advantage that it could make discovery of new communities obsolete - e.g. if there's a [email protected] and a [email protected], it could put both of those into the same Category, and isn't that what you are essentially asking: that wherever the content ends up moving, that the software go and find it and bring it to you, wherever you happen to be at?
Granted, the solution that PieFed offers needs to be improved upon:-), but at least it exists now.
The issue with the mirroring, at least how it was done, is that it was too much content for not enough users, creating the feeling of a deserted mall. If my comment disappears in a flood of posts, it's no better than when my comment disappears in a flood of comments (like it does on reddit). (Lets forget about the part when one guy started copying entire threads including their users, which was not well thought out)
A way of combining communities into "multilemmys" would be great. I can understand why there's pushback for separating topics from users. A Lemmy instance is not just a basket for specific topics, it's a expression of ideology, and as such ideological arguments about the moderation in your proposed structure are guaranteed. It also would reduce comments with minority viewpoints to a minimum.
A slow and steady promotion of lemmy is the best that can happen - from what i learned in the last year a slow and steady influx of people is preferred by the majority, and not a flood of people that can't be handled by our culture.
I like efficiency too, but some things do get lost when speeding things up too much.
Don't mbin already have this?
That was me. ;)
And sorry to disappoint you, I thought about it a lot. Mirroring the entire thread was less about the benefit the (few) users that are here and more about the potential to bring the masses of Reddit users who are stuck there because they (rightfully) claim that they do not have any other place to find their niche content. Mirroring the entire thread was also a way to ensure that we were (a) breaking the monopoly on the conversation and (b) creating an incentive for app developers to create a hybrid Lemmy/Reddit client, that could read from Lemmy and post to both, which would effectively make the transition away from the siloed network completely transparent.
The one thing that I didn't get to execute properly was that I should've completed the two-way bridging before enabling the full mirrors.
This is what the Mastodon crowd would also say. Now they are seeing constant churn and watching Bluesky grow, and have to bury their faces in the sand arguing stupid things like "Bluesky might be winning, but they are not really decentralized". Yeah, it is true. It's not "really" decentralized. 99.98% of the world will say "so what?" and continue to use it.
I'm tired of consolation prizes and moral victories. I want the web to be free, and I want it to be free for more than just a tiny niche of ideologues. Slow and steady will not win against Big Tech.
I know that you thought a lot about it, but you came to the wrong conclusions. But hey, since you seem still pretty grumpy about all of this and nearly a year has come and gone, maybe try again? This time users at least already have a working blocking feature, i think that wasn't a thing yet last time. If a free alternative comes out of it i'm all for it.
... you didn't ask anyone if they would be ok with it, neither on the fediverse nor on reddit, not thinking about possible legal trouble for all federated instances which automatically copied the "property" (ugh i hate IP laws, but it is what it is) of reddit from your instance, opening them up to possible lawsuits.
... your actions would impact the existing structures, which flooded the "all" channel - which made you demand that everyone else change their usage patterns to filter out the spam you created.
... the existing lemmy codebase was probably not performant enough for what you were planning anyway - damn, there are instances that can barely handle federating with lemmy.world; had all of this worked as you planned, i'm pretty sure that the fediverse, or at least most of lemmy would have come to a screeching halt.
To be honest, i am perfectly fine if the people who just want to flood their brain with content stay somewhere else. These people have a plethora of choices to get their dopamine flowing, and with pixelfed there is now one that grows pretty fast in the fediverse too.
But it creates a chilling effect, if the main community for a specific topic is under control of people who might not be as open or even just interested as needed. All discourse is ideological - a discussion about fascism will look very different depending on who has the last say regarding whats acceptable to say.
Mastodon's issues, in my opinion, stem from something else - the name. Mastodon is a really crappy name. I tend to keep an open mind about most things, but i bounced off that name hard. I would choose a service named Bluesky over one named Mastodon 9 times out of ten even if it's not really decentralized. Maybe now with the transfer to a new non-profit someone thinks of a snappier name that's marketable.
It is what it is because we are too afraid to challenge them.
I really don't get this argument. Browsing by "all" is akin to drinking from the firehose, people are not using the affordances that the software provided from the very beginning and then the problem is with those who are bringing content to the network?
Next you are going to tell me that the reason we should keep Lemmy small is to not break people's workflows.
Au contraire!. One of the reasons that I was creating so many different instances was precisely to avoid concentration of communities in a single instance. In Lemmy's currrent design, the communities are the chatty agents. Every comment and post becomes a message broadcast by the community. The reason that LW has become problematic in the overall network is less about the amount the user it has and more because of its communities.
I just disagree, here. In fact, it feels like the opposite is the problem here. I feel like the Fediverse is so concerned about being a place for minorities and outcasts that it only accepts fringe opinions.
May as well be, but completely irrelevant. There are a dozen other projects providing microblogging and a Twitter-like experience. All of them failing to appeal to a more "normie" crowd.
Agree on FB, IG, and Twitter, but which of those are on Reddit?
I missed another F, for Fun.
And yet it's the point. If you just make Lemmy yet another place for the commercialized majority, all that results in is yet another cicle of people who care getting pushed out and have to create a new platform elsewhere. Wasted effort. Rinse and repeat.
You want the web to be free? Then you have to guard against the effects that make it unfree, one of which is the firehose of users who only have a mentality of "consoom" and who think "the internet" is the tiktok button on their smartphone.
Sorry, I reject the premise. The cartoon does not make sense in a decentralized/distributed system.
Lemmy/Mastodon/"The Fediverse" are not isolated places, but an ecosystem that can sustain many different niches.
A Lemmy community is a place. A topic-focused instance is a place. The minority here shouldn't be worried about any tyranny from the majority because they can always have their boundaries established and they can choose how permeable they are.