this post was submitted on 10 Jan 2025
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And those that still think fReE sPEECh is an acceptable concept in the modern world?
In what sense is algoritmically-amplified, targeted data transmission speech? It's of a scale that makes it qualitatively vastly different, and its impact has nothing to do with human speech or the press before the time of the internet (with the exception of yellow journalism, and we all know how well that served us).
I defend the right for you to say what you want, with few restrictions. But that doesn't mean you can set up a 250 kwatt PA system outside my bedroom window and 3 AM and shake me out of my bed with the subsonics. And that's where we are with the oligopoly social media providers.
Ya know I never thought I'd see the day that a marginalized people would protest free speech fundamentally. This is just next level stupid.
The freedom to speak has nothing to do with being heard.
Free speech is absolutely an acceptable concept, but it's merely a restriction on government.
Private platforms are free to drop you from their platform if they don't like your speech, and you can be prosecuted if your speech violates a law (e.g. hate speech). Platforms can also restrict the types of speech allowed on their platforms. None of that is a violation of free speech.
Free speech is only violated if governments place a restriction on the speech itself, or force private entities to enforce restrictions.
It isn't. Free speech is a right the gov can give you, but it's also just a concept.
Governments don't grant rights, they can only restrict them.
They can recognize them. But nice strawman.
It's not a strawman, it's literally what you wrote.
The Bill of Rights in the US only exists to prevent encroachment on individual rights, they're not necessary in order for people to have them. Arguably, governments only have rights explicitly granted to them, because they only exist due to the people submitting themselves to them.
It's an important distinction, and one so many seem to misunderstand. I'm not saying you do, I'm merely clarifying in case someone else does.
And, in reality, the only rights that remain are those that have been fought for. "Inalienable rights, granted by the Creator" is a lovely concept, but it's not self-enforcing, and as we've seen, rights can be effectively nullified by a corrupt Supreme Court and a fascist legislature and executive branch. OK, you can pretend they still exist in the abstract, but they're de facto gone if state institutions or people power don't defend them.
Agreed. In fact, the whole concept of inalienable rights, specifically the phase "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence, was used to justify the American Revolution. In essence, people are endowed with certain rights from their creator, one of which is deciding which powers to be subject to. If your government doesn't represent your interests, you have the moral right to reject it and seek to replace it with one that does.
So yes, we absolutely need to fight to protect the rights we do have, and reestablish those we lost. Giving up even more rights in the process is counter-productive. We need more movements like the Civil Rights movement to demand change. We've given up too much power to the police, intelligence agencies, and more, and we should absolutely actively resist and demand restoration of our full rights.
You ignored the point I was making to argue about semantics. Still are. That's a strawman.
And what was that point? My point is that freedom of speech has nothing to do with private platforms.
I stated my point very bluntly in the comment you replied to above. Freedom of speech is not "merely a restriction on government". It is a concept that exists outside of government entirely. And it has everything to do with anywhere speech is expressed, including private platforms.
Rights only make sense in the context of governments, which have the power to strip my rights through imprisonment. I have no right to speech on a private platform or on private property, I am there at the pleasure of the owner. So talking about rights (esp freedom of speech) makes no sense outside the context of government.
That's why I argue that rights are a restriction (or a check) on the power of governments. Only a tyrannical government will attempt to abridge my rights.
Yes, it exists outside of government as a function of your nature, but that means nothing outside the context of an authority with the power to strip it away.
We weren't talking about the "right" to free speech. We were just talking about free speech.
Ok, and what does that mean if not the right to free speech?
Just because the far right tries to change the definition to forcing private platforms to letting them say what they want doesn't change anything. That's not free speech, that's restricting the platform owner's speech. Free speech is a restriction on the types of laws governments can pass regarding speech (i.e. forcing a major platform to accept a user's speech would certainly be a violation).
The political right can't change that definition for the same reason the political left can't force deplatforming of "hate speech."
It just means being allowed to say what you want. It has nothing to do with rights or laws.
Uhhhh that's the opposite of what's happening. The UN is the one trying to change the definition to pretend it means something other than what it does.
Yes. That is the very definition of free speech.
The platform is not the one being censored. The users are.
It seems we're arguing the same thing.
The far right in the US argues that "free speech" means forcing large SM orgs to give them a platform, and this UN goon seems to think it means silencing "hate speech" (I guess freedom from speech?).
Both are wrong.
Yes that's what it means. The platforms are under no obligation to give it to them, but if they don't allow certain types of speech, that is the definition of censorship (the opposite of free speech). It is their prerogative as a private platform to censor speech.
The UN goons think silencing hate speech is not censorship. It is. Let's stop playing senseless semantics games and just own it. Say "yes we are censoring hate speech" because arguing that it's not is dishonest.
Exactly, and I argue censorship is only a problem when it comes from the government. If a private platform censors my speech, I can either accept it or go elsewhere. If the government censors my speech, I'm screwed.
Free speech without consequences is what fascists are after. Free speech is an action to which they want no reaction or even worse when there is a negative reaction (also a desired goal) they will use that to attack the structures attempting to uphold peace.
And it'll only be their speech that's free.
Yes that's why the Chinese are such big proponents of free speech!