There will be a new announcement soon to clarify.
~~Communities should not be overly moderated in order to enforce a specific narrative. Respectful disagreement should be allowed in a smaller proportion to the established narrative.~~
~~Humans are naturally inclined to believe a single narrative when they're only presented with a single narrative. That's the basis of how fiction works. You can't tell someone a story if they're questioning every paragraph. However, a well placed sentence questioning that narrative gives the reader the option to chose. They're no longer in a story being told by one author, and they're free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.~~
~~Unfortunately, some malicious actors are hijacking this natural tendency to be invested in fiction, and they're using it to create absurd, cult-like trends in non-fiction. They're using this for various nefarious ends, to turn us against each other, to generate profit, and to affect politics both domestically and internationally.~~
~~In a fully anonymous social media platform, we can't counter this fully. But we can prune some of the most egregious echo chambers.~~
~~We're aware that this policy is going to be subjective. It won't be popular in all instances. We're going to allow some "flat earth" comments. We're going to force some moderators to accept some "flat earth" comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so. One sentence that doesn't jive with the overall narrative should be easily countered or ignored~~.
~~It's harder to just dismiss that comment if it's interrupting your fictional story that's pretending to be real. "The moon is upside down in Australia" does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than "Nobody has crossed the ice wall" does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.~~
~~A user should be able to (respectfully, infrequently) post/comment about a study showing marijuana is a gateway drug to !marijuana without moderation tools being used to censor that content.~~
~~Of course this isn't about marijuana. There's a small handful of self-selected moderators who are very transparently looking to push their particular narrative. And they don't want to allow discussion. They want to function as propaganda and an incubator. Our goal is to allow a few pinholes of light into the Truman show they wish to create. When those users' pinholes are systematically shut down, we as admins can directly fix the issue.~~
~~We don't expect this policy to be perfect. Admins are not aware of everything that happens on our instances and don't expect to be. This is a tool that allows us to trim the most extreme of our communities and guide them to something more reasonable. This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on [email protected] so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves. We want to enable our users to counter the absolute BS, and be able to step in when self-selected moderators silence those reasonable people.~~
~~Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.~~
~~Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that's not "in a smaller proportion" and you're free to do what you like about that. If their "counter" narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you're free to address that. If they're belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they're just saying something you don't like, respectfully, and they're not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.~~
I couldn't care less about flat earthers. It's the lack of moderation of hate speech that prompted me to leave Meta products. When the speech is specifically designed to harm others it's a huge difference from just harming themselves and their willing peers. Allowing spreading that LGBTQ+ people are mentally ill or that Autistic people need to be fixed rather than accepted, or that all immigrants are bad people, those things are not just bad science (though that's part of it). They are designed to have those people ostracized or murdered. That is not "respectful disagreement". That is pure hate-speech, even if the person saying it truly believes it. It is detrimental to the community and if that is allowed here like on Meta now, I'll happily leave as a proud LGBTQ+ and neurodivergent person among other things that current "political discourse" (i.e. acceptable hate) is being allowed to spread.
Our original ToS hasn't gone anywhere and will still be enforced. Hate speech is not respectful. None of this means discrimination or hate speech is okay.
Before using the website, remember you will be interacting with actual, real people and communities. Lemmy.World is not a place for you to attack other people or groups of people. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't give you the right to harass them. Discuss ideas and be critical of principles. Show the respect you desire to receive.
The problem other than the fact that the timing is suspect as other social media is moving as quickly as possible to allow hate speech under the guise of free speech, is that the language uses seems to imply that moderators must cater to moderating only things that are hateful or attacks by all users. Problem is that many on the far right don't consider the things I mentioned or most other hate speech to be disrespectful. They don't consider those people to be worthy of respect or human at all. They are "followers of the devil" or whatever excuse they have told themselves to justify their hate.
So saying that hate speech is not respectful only works if all parties consider it hate speech. But all of these things are now excluded from what Meta considers hate speech (they do still ban hate speech in general, just are more specific now about what that is). For example, they just consider LGBTQ+ people being mentally ill to be a fact or at least setting up for debate. They even provide examples of what they consider to be "opinion" and thus "free speech" and not "hate speech" like calling trans and non-binary people "it" or calling women "household objects" to dehumanize them is considered not hate speech by them.
So, either you need to specifically call out all the things you consider hate speech that far right people do not, or you need to allow moderators to do their job as members of society that understand what is hate and what is not. It's never black and white.
Or we could just be subjective and use our judgement when it comes to those things. The timing with the Meta thing was truly, truly unfortunate. This was completely unrelated and just happened to look similar. Of course we've never had professional fact checkers here.
How is that opinion compatible with forcing community mods to validate & allow misinformation and trolling?
If you're going to say speech saying a person is mentally ill because they are LGBTQ+ or that a woman are "household property" needs to be evaluated subjectively and these changes are saying that moderators should not make subjective determinations and should err on the side of assuming they are OK, then you are saying that these things are not hate speech and thus not covered by the hate speech policy. And with moderation of X and Meta now saying these things are not hate speech, it seems even more likely that moderators will need to leave these things in place due to this policy. And in that case I'll be leaving as I don't wish to be the target of anti-LGBTQ+, anti-autism, or any other hate speech that is now allowed on X and Meta and will likely have to be allowed here as some group considers them not hate speech.
That's an awful lot of ifs and assumptions. Especially when I've often said the opposite (just not in every comment).
I understand the parallels with the Meta thing, which is truly unfortunate. More bad timing than anything else. We didn't replace professional fact checkers. We weren't doing this to allow hate speech. We're not Facebook or Reddit.
But if this policy goes into effect. You are saying it's all subjective and thus the hate speech policy only applies if you or a server level admin say it's hate speech. You're asking moderators not to moderate if there's any question about whether it is OK or not. And a large number of people now believe it's OK which is why X and Meta have these policies, so to me and likely to many moderators here, you're saying exactly as Meta just said, don't moderate these things as hate speech. Remember, Meta also still has an anti-hate speech policy, it's just that these subjects are no longer considered hate speech by enough of their users that they don't allow moderation of it. You're asking for the exact same thing, you just haven't called out the specifics, you're leaving it "subjective". And with moderation, abstaining from action is the exact same as acceptance.
Please do ban anyone who trolls with the "mental illness" thing. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.
But what about black people should be slaves or women should be household objects or Autism needs to be "cured", or all of the other hate speech that some people think is not hate speech? I hope that you'll clarify the rules because the post here left it open for interpretation and specifically made it policy that anything "subjective" to any person's point of view shouldn't be moderated. Free speech isnt free if it's not regulated. If people are free to say I'm not human because I'm LGBTQ+, autistic, or any other trait that is considered "bad" by some group of people, then I'm not free to exist, much less speak.
If this isn't clear, I'm not sure how else to make it clear. I'll be moving along and dragging my groups with me, but for those remaining, I hope you'll reconsider trying to ban objective moderation and create very specific categories of what can be moderated. But that's a huge undertaking.
It's generally better to come from the other side. Give a set of things that should NOT be moderated on top of the things that MUST be moderated (like the concept of "protected classes" in many anti-discrimination laws) and as exceptions come up, add them to the NOT moderated list.
Your way is stating everything is in the NOT moderated as it's all subjective to someone and thus the hate speech policy is void unless all parties including the ones saying it agree that it's hate speech (which they never will). This is backwards and will create a ton of hate speech to get through and thus a ton of true free-speech to be lost from the minorities they attack. This is how it has worked throughout history. It's not a new concept, so I'm unsure how else to say it to convince you.
It states nothing like that. You're filling in the blanks with things you want to be angry about.
I'm filling in the blanks with the logical conclusion based on the direction of social media in general since there are blanks and this policy discourages moderators from moderating when there are blanks. And moderators trying to not get banned will often do the same.
Lack of specific directions for a scenario with conflicting, subjective options, a limited leadership empowered to make decisions so the lower levels can't all have direct access, and the threat of serious consequences for doing it wrong is how fascism thrives through inaction against it. Same goes for regulatory systems and thus is likely to happen in a moderation system. This is just sociology.
Anyway, I'll be moving my main profiles and communities for now and check in at a later date to see how the policy develops. Hope you'll consider the needs of the communities over the needs of the extremists.
Enjoy the move !
Hello,
Any idea when the new announcement will be made, following the edit?
https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ could be a good fit for you
It isn't necessarily 'pure hate speech' and shutting off the discussion is what is leading you to come to this conclusion. If a pill were developed that allowed someone diagnosed with autism to live more like the general public without a lifetime of current therapies, and no side-effects why is me suggesting they consider this option 'pure hate'? Can you see how one-sided your stance is?
Because most are saying that my existence is a disease to be cured and not simply a different way of existing. It's like telling a black person that drug should be developed to bleach their skin so they can live more like the general public without a lifetime of prejudices. Autism only requires therapy to force us to act differently than our brains tell us to act. Not because oรญr normal way of acting is somehow self-destructive, but because it breaks social norms and makes others uncomfortable. The "cure" is fir other people to accept us as we are, just like the "cure" for being black is to accept them not change them.
So, not 'pure hate'. There's some impurities in there apparently.
There are more issues with autism than 'it breaks social norms' and seeking treatments for the condition is looking to improve lives, not being hateful.
I didn't say treatment wasn't good. I said it wasnt something to cure. Just like black people might seek counseling for how to deal with the inequalities, autistic people need treatment to deal with the issues that society causes for them. I'm saying anything that's saying Autism is something to be "cured" is hate speech. You're saying that Autistic people like me should exist as we are, but change to fit society, just like saying a black person should change their skin color to fit in better. Autism is not a disease regardless of what companiea like Autism Speaks try to push. It is simply a different way of thinking.
So yes, is you're one of the people specifically saying that Autism shouldn't exist and needs to be cured that is pure hate speech. It you're saying it requires treatment, then it depends on the specifics and thus my use of the word "most". So it saying it needs a cure should be moderated as hate speech. But if no hate speech is being moderated to allow thing that aren't hate speech that doesn't make sense. If you understand what is and what isnt hate speech, then it's easy to moderate bad from less obviously good or bad. It's not a thin line.
Autism is more than just social difficulties. There are repetitive behavioural problems that can be downright harmful to the individual if particularly severe. To me it sounds like you are or know someone with autism that isn't particularly severe and are pretty comfortable with it. That's great, but what about those suffering from the disorder that aren't responding to treatment as well to the point their communication deficits are causing problems with their education and future prospects? What do you say to those whom a cure could vastly improve their life? I have a hard time understanding how treatment is 'good' but cure is 'hate'. Wanting a cure to be available isn't the same as expecting it be mandatory.
I think the issue is you are assuming some level of judgment or condescension because of the condition and that is not the case. A person with autism is a person and absolutely be treated as such.