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there’s more than shown here and it’s more than just these users too 😭
if you find the thread don’t piss in the popcorn (brigade) but also please maybe don’t bring it back here i don’t want 400 notifications of entry level “is almond milk milk” vegan discourse
This is btw one main reason why milk is murder, because many of those calves are often killed for their meat. The other reason is that cows stop beeing productive and are killed way before their natural death, since the replacement calves are rdy to go (I think it was something like after 5 years with their natural life span beeing around 25, but I'm not sure if I remember correctly).
A bit oversimplified, but just to add a bit more context why vegans don't drink milk.
What about plant-based milk such as Soy Bean Milk - would that work as a suitable less resource intensive alternative?
Plant based alternates aren’t necessarily better for the environment or use less resources but they do get around the animal cruelty part.
They’re just usually woefully terribly for the environment in their farming and production.
At least 50% of them are killed - very, very few males make it to adulthood.
this is incorrect
Not this time, I don't think. The internet says that male calves are typically killed for meat at 18 months old, but would reach adulthood at 4 years of age. One male breeder adult is rented out to other farmers for a fixed period to impregnate the whole (female) herd. All the other males are killed. So few males make it to adulthood that it's not normally even one per herd. Cows are usually killed if they don't get pregnant after a number of tries. There's no sense farmers spending a lot of money keeping an animal alive to not even get any milk from it, and there's not a lot of profit in farming in my country for them to sentimentally keep animals alive.
18 months is full weight
I have 320 beef cows, and about that many steers/heifers waiting for market.
18 months on a steer is about 1200lbs, pasture fed then grain finished before slaughter. A non-castrated male can get to 2200lbs after 4-5 years. I'd call that an adult bull. They can breed successfully at damn near any age after 12 months, but I wouldn't call them developed until about 30.
you know that, whether they are male or female, they are at full weight for slaughter around 18 months.
It's not not adulthood, and it's certainly not a full life, because cows and bulls would love to over 15 if we let them.
if we didn't provide veterinary care and feed and water and shelter and protection from predators, I doubt any would live so long.
15-20 years is the natural life span of cattle. Google it if you like.
In my country, all the wolves got wiped out and cattle are too big for foxes to take on.
Cattle get fewer diseases if they're not kept inside in cramped conditions eating unnatural bulking food like corn. and are instead allowed to graze grassland freely. Not all of them would live to 20 by a long shot, but a big proportion would make it past 15.
Cows don't naturally eat corn. It gives them really bad digestion problems, but makes them put on so much fat that it gets stored in little pockets in muscle tissue. The result is meat which has what's called "marbling" and is seen as a sign of quality and tastiness in the USA. This unnatural feed has health issues for the cattle and it's common in the USA to give low dosage antibiotics so that fewer animals get sick and have to be put down.
(This is the perfect bedding ground for antibiotic resistant bacteria, and more and more bacteria are evolving antibiotic resistance which means when humans get an infection, they usually die rather than usually live, risking bacterial infection survival rates going back to nearer 19th century levels, when a random cut might just lead to your death. We're working hard on new antibiotics, but they're far more expensive than penecillin, and at the moment drug resistance is growing faster than me antibiotics are.)
In my country, only about 5% of cattle are kept inside all year, and they're almost all grass fed and meat is much leaner, and lean meat like (lean) fillet steak is seen as the highest quality.
no cow lives 15-20 years without human intervention.
Google natural lifespan cow.
I'm not responsible for supporting your argument: you are
Apparently you're not responsible for updating your knowledge from external sources or admitting you might have made a mistake or been incorrect. Not your style at all.
I have no problem learning I'm wrong.
That's not what your comment history says about you. At all.
anyone can see that's not true
Not by reading your post history, they can't! Lol.
that's the best evidence for it to be untrue.
Link me to one comment where you backed down or admitted you were wrong! Are you prepared to admit that male cows are killed for meat before adulthood, that the natural lifespan of cattle is so,ewhere inthe region of 15-20 years or that milk farming happens because there's commercial demand for milk? I suspect not. Surprise me!
that's not true
You don't half post some crazy stuff then refuse to admit you're wrong.
if i was wrong, you'd be able to show that.
If you were prepared to ever admit you were wrong, you would have done it today.
that's not true.
Lol.
i'm not your puppet, but since youre obsessed with my comment history, you surely have seen me do exactly that. continuing to assert i do not means you either have not read what you claim to have done, or you are being intellectually dishonest.
Lol.
Link me to one comment where you backed down or admitted you were wrong!
Are you prepared to admit that male cows are killed for meat before adulthood, that the natural lifespan of cattle is so,ewhere inthe region of 15-20 years or that milk farming happens because there’s commercial demand for milk? I suspect not. Surprise me!
don't be petulant
Go on, admits-they're-wrong person. You made an assertion. Prove it!
Link me to one comment where you backed down or admitted you were wrong!
Are you prepared to admit that male cows are killed for meat before adulthood, that the natural lifespan of cattle is so,ewhere inthe region of 15-20 years or that milk farming happens because there’s commercial demand for milk? I suspect not. Surprise me!
"many" is doing a lot of lifting here.
the majority of Castle are slaughtered at full weight. hardly any become veal
The majority of male calves are killed at 18 months for meat (equivalent of about 6 in human age) once they've put on enough weight. "Veal" is if they're killed under 12 months, which is rarer, but adulthood is a couple of years later, and yes, not just many of the calves, almost all of the male ones.
Dairy cows are killed once they've been milked for a few years as yields start to fall and become uneconomic. They typically live for six or fewer years, but their natural lifespan would be more than 15.
"Many" isn't doing a lot of lifting, it's doing a lot of understatement.
18 months is full weight
Under 12 months is veal, so you were correct that most don't end up as veal.
But they count as calves until adulthood, which is nearer age 4. They're normally killed for meat at about 18 months or six in human years. They do continue to put on weight into adulthood, but less rapidly than in the first 18 months, so you get a better return on investment by killing them while they're still calves, because you've saved half your costs but got 3/4 of the weight in meat, and the meat is more tender and marketable.
So not quite full weight, and definitely still killed as a calf, not as an adult.
A 3 year old cow is not a calf.
If you like, but my point is that it's certainly not an adult. Male calves are almost all killed before adulthood.
Cows are fully mature at around 24 months old, depending on breed.
They do not have an extended developmental period like humans so the comparison to a 6 year old human based on maximum lifespan is fallacious.
Even if your numbers were correct, 18 months, the typical slaughter age of cattle, is before adulthood, and a long way before the natural lifespan of between 15-20 years.
Male cows are killed young for meat. Female cows are killed once they're less use for milk.
It shouldn't be surprising to you. It's just economics. It makes no financial sense to do otherwise.
I don't see any point in pretending otherwise and I don't know why you want to.
This is simply not correct, cows are slaughtered at adulthood because they also require time to fully grow and maximise the amount of meat.
Cows reach adulthood relatively quickly. You still seem to be measuring a cows adulthood comparative to a human lifespan which I have already pointed out is useless.
I'm going to repost what @[email protected] said:
So full weight is more like 2200lbs, whereas at 18 months they're only weighing 1200lbs, and aren't fully grown or adult. Also you can look stuff up on the internet, it's not hard, you don't have to make stuff up just because you don't like the facts.
It's uneconomic to keep them till they're adult, the fast rate of growth at the beginning is the profitable bit. Keeping them later costs farmers money they don't need to spend and can reduce the price of the meat that they're selling. It doesn't make any sense financially to let them mature.
male cows are killed at the same age as all other beef cattle.
almost all beef is slaughtered around 18 months, male or female. that's full weight.
It's slaughter weight, not full weight. Lots of female cows are kept alive for another few years for milk and calving.
it seems you're splitting hairs
Says the person who has been splitting hairs for nearly 24 hours. For reference, here's our original interaction:
They're slaughtered at 18 months, and that's before adulthood. I was correct. You continue to work very hard to find some way to make this correct statement sound incorrect.
it's the average lifespan of beef cattle. whether it's splitting hairs to insist on the moment of adulthood.
Case in point