Lemmy is a worse platform for women than Reddit was EDIT this link is an OLD POST that contains my thesis on the state of lemmy and is not the context of the much more recent comment in the screenshot. sorry for any confusion caused by this juxtaposition, my main goal with having this linked is to expose how nothing has improved
No, I think the reply is appropriate enough. The comment you quoted is an extremely mysogynist take, falling right into the incel perspective of "if women refuse to have sex with men, they are inconsiderate."
The value of women is not just for men to have sex with them—they have the agency to decide for themselves what they want to do with their own bodies. This is basically what the downvoted post is saying. Women choosing not to put out doesn't "radicalize" incels any more than women showing a bit of skin creates rapists.
If there are men who can't get over the fact that some women might choose not to have sex with them for political reasons, they can read Lysistrata or something.
That doesn't seem to apply to what you quoted, however. The section you quoted framed sex as a transactional obligation on the part of women, asserting that if women refuse to sleep with men who support their views and rights, they'll become radicalized and turn into incels.
The logic in that statement is that men who care about women are entitled to a bit of quid pro quo, "I support your rights as a person and you have sex with me" even though that is entirely antithetical to the point.
If men care about women's issues, then they are inherently fine with women making a conscious decision to not have sex. Otherwise, it means they don't really care about women's issues, and likely never did.
No one is shaming women for choosing to have sex with people they want to have sex with, just that the decision of those women who wish to stop having sex be respected.
Hmm, I guess I can see why you would read it that way, but I think we can agree to disagree: I read it as the second paragraph of the comment I linked to. 4B is about not having sexual relations with anyone, including those who one would otherwise desire.
It really doesn't, since the comment you quoted is basically saying that women making decisions over their own bodies is the cause of misogyny, which is the most generic MRA victim blaming bullshit which doesn't deserve to be legitimised by being seriously addressed, nor defended by people pretending to have good faith.
The bullshit at the top of this thread inspired me:
very discussion, much wow
Do everyone a favor and consider your position more carefully. Particularly, consider the difference between an individual woman deciding what to do with her body and an entire movement asking for a large number of women to do (or not do) something with their body.
the comment isn’t saying women can’t make their own decisions… the comment is saying that the guy wants to have sex, and if he can’t then they’re incompatible partners right now… women are allowed to make choices about their bodies, and men are allowed to make choices about activities they’d like to have in their lives
the reply comment implies that he only thinks about using a woman for sex, which is not what he’s saying at all
another example would be if 1 person wanted to live in the city and the other wanted to live in a farm: likely a deal-breaker, just like not having sex
this is a horrible read. it's about how men not getting incentive to do the right thing would result in e.g. lawmakers being pressured to repress women. it's fine if they only 4b those who don't respect them or abortion
believe what you want, but as a gay man (i say this so you’re aware that there’s no misogyny involved edit: and by which i mean my personal sex life does not involve women so gender does not come into play in this specific situation), i’d never date someone where sex was off the table… i wouldn’t force it on anyone of course, but we fuck or we break up - sex is too important for my mental health to deny myself
Lmao at the idea a gay man can't be misogynist.
that’s not at all the intention of the comment - simply that when i make a comment directly related to my personal sex life, you’re aware that there are no women involved, thus the comment eliminates misogyny from the equation in that specific case. i’m sorry for not being clearer on that. i’ve added an edit to my comment so that it’s more apparent
My issue with 4b is we know it doesn't work.
What's the one thing that we know helps people stop being bigoted? Exposure to the people they're bigoted against. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2705986/
The 4b movement is like saying "the solution to racism is segregation"
On an interpersonal level, women absolutely should be wary of every man they come across, but that doesn't mean a more extreme version of that works as a cultural movement.
Only if living in the city is the same as bodily autonomy, and living on a farm is rape.
But hey, this is great, keep telling on yourselves, it makes you easier to block and avoid.
No, it isn't.
That analogy would only work if the person who wanted to live on the farm just made the other person come with them. Breaking up and going their own separate ways is not at all analagous to rape.
Ratio again
I'm kinda tired of arguments that expect the minoritized group to not "radicalize" the majority group. Why is it on the people who are being oppressed to not offend people aren't even necessarily oppressors? Honestly, this comment is tone deaf as fuck.
I actually think the movement is a bad idea, but for another reason. I just think it's unreasonable to ask people to avoid relationships. The male dating pool is totally fucked for girls, but if you have desires, they shouldn't be denied. Even as a bi gal who generally prefers girls and isn't looking to date guys, I won't rule out men. The vast majority are undatable, but that's because so many of them aren't raised right. They aren't taught proper empathy and respect for others, never having a chance at being good partners. It's a systemic problem, only further reinforced by the internet and toxic male culture.
They aren't taught that they NEED to constantly earn women's trust and love. They aren't taught that kindness AND strength are what women generally look for. Be a fucking hero who fights for his loved ones. Make her feel safe, not in danger if she doesn't "pay up." Be ambitious AND kind.
It's respectability politics. The same as when people complain about climate protestors blocking roads etc. There's a huge segment of society that cares more about avoiding any sort of conflict than achieving just outcomes.