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‘We were sure the Russian army would protect us’: fury after Ukrainian incursion into Kursk
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2024
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As an American who opposed the Iraq War and watched so many of my fellow Americans, mostly conservative, beat the drums of war and slapping yellow ribbons on their suburbans... The same sentiment was definitely here. People treated war in Afghanistan and Iraq like a game. Americans especially as of late have never really felt the direct impact of all-out war. In fact Putin learned a lot about domestic propaganda from those Bush years.
Yeah there's a fair amount of cross pollination between Fox News and co and Russian state sponsored tv, like Alex Jones for example used to appear on various Russian channels.
The first few minutes of this video are a good illustration of the parallels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OFyn_KSy80
I try to tell people just how bad war is and how much it should be avoided. But that Hollywood idea is just too dug in. I really enjoyed the civil war movie that just came out though. I hope people saw it's message on the sheer capriciousness of suffering in war.
What movie?
I believe they are talking about the movie actually called Civil War about a modern civil war.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17279496/
I haven't seen it myself. Apparently, the movie never explains why there is a war, which would annoy me too much.
Oh I saw that... it was decent but I agree it relied too heavily on the purposely not explaining things to create mystery? Otherwise the interaction between characters is good and I believe it had Pedro pascal in it
The war is there because the right talked about it so much until they got it
This is true, but it's not what the movie is about so not really an important part.
They drop enough hints to satisfy curiosity but they do not go into details
I might watch it eventually if it drops hints, but I am really tired of movies like that which don't actually tell you why it happened. I felt that way about The Road and also about Leave the World Behind. Fans argue that the actual reason everything ended, or is ending in the case of the latter, don't matter because it's all about the characters... and if that works for you, fine. I need something more than "it just happened."
I totally understand where you are coming from and agree in those particular examples; sure, the characters give us something to watch but without understanding what is actually happening, the story loses tons of steam
In the case of Civil War I think it works because of the following (no spoilers):
Cinematography is amazing and it does have that odd vibe that A24 movies have. I liked this movie a lot.
Okay, you have convinced me. I will put it on my very long list. Thanks.
I don't think it's quite the same situation because an attack on US soil preceded the war in Afghanistan. I think people in NYC felt the direct impact of war on 9/11.
The Taliban offered to give up Bin Ladin in exchange for us to stop bombing them before our invasion. We refused and invaded anyway. Worked out great, I'm told.
Source?
Literally just any news article from when it was happening.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
Yeah fair point. I think much of America felt they had an obligation to respond directly to those directly involved with 9/11 (and yet, we never touched Saudi Arabia), so I can understand a limited operation to find OBL.
... Yet literally within 6 months of 9/11, George W Bush famously said, "I don't know where he is, nor do I spend much time on it to be honest with ya[...] I truly am not that concerned about him." Source
It took Obama to clean that up with precision, which is how it always should've been.
That being said I should note that Iraq had fundamentally nothing to do with 9/11 in any way. There were many lies spread by right-wing media and the Bush Administration trying to tie Iraq and Saddam to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, but none of those bore any truth.
I was politically conscious back then and from amn outside perspective the stupidity was very obvious.
Understandably 911 worked to get people into the mindset.
Russia is different: the people do not care about the reasons for this war, they are depolitisized and powerless and just hope to get through this somehow. They do not seem hungry for this war and are either conscripts or volunteers who get a fairly high salary.
I'm Ukrainian who has lived in the US for almost 30 years. Only now, after Ukraine has bee invaded, did I realize what having that yellow ribbon in "support of our troops" meant. It doesn't matter what kind of "altruistic" reasons you assign to it. Any time a country invades another, they are the bad guy because ANY war means the deaths of innocent people and should be avoided at all costs, no matter the reason.
Much respect to you for evolving your views! There's an incredible documentary, Once Upon a Time in Iraq that shows the war through the perspective of Iraqi civilians. One of the best docs I've ever seen.
You must have a pretty unique perspective on the Russian-Ukraine war. Hoping any family and friends you may have over there are safe.
Experiencing your native country at war changes your perspective on A LOT of things. It makes it easier to understand the wars of the past, and also, puts them in perspective...amongst many many other things. I will consider watching that documentary if there is no actual gore in it, because that's not something I am willing to watch. My relatives are physically ok right now, but they're angry and emotionally drained. It is scary seeing them talk about a recent nearby explosion and making sure everyone is ok.
But yea, it doesn't matter who was "right" or "wrong" prior to war. As soon as you invade, everything prior to that gets overwritten and you're 100% the bad guy, no matter how you justify it.
Thanks for your insight and best of luck to you and your family. A neighbor in my neighborhood has both an American and Ukrainian flag in their yard and I've been wanting to stop to say hello. Nothing but respect...
That documentary has little to no gore if I recall, but a lot of tense moments. The cut I watched was from PBS Frontline, so they're usually pretty tame.. There is a much longer version I believe from the BBC floating around that is over 4 hours long, but I haven't seen that yet.