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Exactly! The party running on saving democracy already stole our ability to democratically select a candidate. At least they should be willing to present the appearance of an approximation of democracy. Somehow that's suddenly a radical position.
Just like in the actual presidential election, during the primary, you are voting for electors (delegates) who have pledged their votes to a candidate, and their votes are cast at the convention.
If that candidate leaves the race, those electors still get to vote their conscience. That is what you have entrusted them to do.
So that means that at least Florida, Delaware, North Carolina, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Indiana must have primaries still for any delegates?
A state is allowed to allocate their delegates by whatever rules they see fit, it varies state to state. In Maine they don't even all have to go to the same candidate.
No kidding. Now go learn what an open primary is.
Allowing multiple candidates to present their case at the primary would give the public the chance to choose and try and to convince their delegates. It would be a farce that Kamala would still win, but it would at least present the Democrats as trying to represent instead of rule.
We should have had a proper primary in the first place. By the way, do you even know what delegates you "chose" to represent you? I doubt it. Then how did you choose them? How many Americans do you think even know who their delegates are? I'm pretty wonky, and I have no idea. Delegates (and electors) aren't even known, nevermind trusted by the vast majority of Americans.
We did have a primary. Remember "write-in uncommitted"? Those were primaries. Anyone who wanted could have ran, even you, assuming you're an American citizen over the age of 35. Which is actually pretty unlikely now that I think about it, but whatever.
I said a proper primary. I'm not going to argue the point though. If you think we had a proper primary then I can't help you.
In what way do you think it should have been fixed? A Philips/Biden/Williamson debate?
Didn't they already tell you? The primary election is done.
It's hard to keep the talking points in order, I guess.
This particular thread is about whether we had adequate primaries or not. Not when they were.
Sure, but "The primaries are over." Whether that primary was "adequate" when Biden was a candidate is kind of orthoganal to Harris securing enough delegate endorsements.
Seemed like the other commenter was dismissing the primary as "over" with one side of their mouth while complaining about its "inadequacy" with the other.
Sure. I was mainly concerned with the inadequacy side of it this time. My problem is tangential to the OP post but not directly related. I firmly believe the primary was actually adequate, and am interested in discussing it, at great length if necessary.
The primaries are over thing is a legitimate argument imo, I have no issues with it. I fully understand how people could be upset with the current situation, I think that is a healthy, democratic opinion a person can have, even if I don't personally share it.
I didn't bring up the primary. Someone else brought it into the conversation (you in fact) and I responded to that point. That's why threads fork.
Sorry, all the propagandists look the same to me.
What makes me a propagandist?
It's not complicated. There is no time for a primary at this point. We had an official primary, but it was a farse. This is where the incestuous relationship between the political establishment and the media establishment comes in. They can do their primary without it ever being an actual contest. When mainstream media backs a single candidate and shuts out all others from public view, a primary becomes a joke.
This is where the blue MAGA accusation becomes valid. You would never in a million years be OK with this state of affairs if it didn't benefit your chosen candidate. You don't want democracy, you want to be in charge.
It might have saved us the Biden Trump debate.
Probably not. Dean was running to the right of Biden and unlikely to appeal to current day dems, and Williamson has no political experience.
If the Biden that debated Trump showed up to debate Williamson, she would hand him his ass. If she's inexperienced then let her make a fool out of herself. I'm not outraged that I didn't get my choice, but I am outraged that the establishment can just shut opponents out of the public discourse and subvert the primary. You don't get to decide all by yourself who is qualified to be President.
Making a requirement that a certain amount of support is necessary before wasting time and money on debates is reasonable. Williamson has no experience, and debate performance has minimal value in deciding who wins an election or how good of a president they would be. Hilary won debates, lost the election.
This hanging onto debates as some sort of important thing is foolish. In 2020, the DNC set a record of 20 million people watching their most viewed debate. Out of 330 million citizens. Almost two dozen people participated in the debates. People just don't really give a shit about debates, they're not a particularly good medium, and are unnecessary to understand a candidates positions in the era of wikipedia.
You are ignoring or rewriting every argument I make into something unrecognizable. I never said there should be no threshold for inclusion. Blackballing every potential candidate before they even declare is another thing entirely. No candidate is "serious" when the media won't put it Tennessee n the air. Remember when MSNBC put Trump's empty podium on the air instead of covering Bernie's announcement? They even had a reporter there, but staton management got a call from the Hillary campaign and it was shut down.
You can quit lecturing me on the process and it's rationalizations. I guarantee that I'm more familiar with them than you are, so quit being condescending.
I believe it was you who brought up debates. All I want is the Democrats to stop muscling progressives off mainstream media, give them a podium for a convention speech (since the primary is over) then let the chips fall where they may. Is that so unreasonable? I don't even think anyone but Harris has a real shot, but messaging candidates are important.
Ultimately the message here is, progressives, sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, and tow the party line. All I want is the appearance of a contest, but even that is considered radical.
How many voters do you think read up on candidates on Wikipedia? Come on, pretend to be at least a little savvy.
All I've done is try to understand your positions and try to support my own. If I've mischaracterized yours I apologize and encourage you to correct me. Really though, I think your position becomes very weak when any other framing except your conspiratorial one is used.
Politics is hardball, no question about it. Especially nowadays. The media is its own thing though, they can put whatever they want on the air, for whatever reason. Our first amendment allows this freedom of the press, for better or for worse. Though I do agree some of the behavior of the Hilary campaign was unethical.
What progressive candidates have been recently blackballed? This reeks of conspiracy theory. I think the real reason we do not see more progressive candidates is that most democratic voters are not really all that progressive, unfortunately. It sometimes seems to me the party is held up mainly by soccer moms. Everyone knew Bernie was running, announcement speech on MSNBC or no. But he lost the popular vote to Hilary, 13.2 million to 16.9 million. I don't think any change in MSNBC's behavior could have swung it his way, with its viewership of about 1 million.
Sorry if I've offended you, but your guarantees of your own knowledge do not impress me. Your arguments and evidence in support of your own positions are what I'm paying attention to.
I think vastly, vastly more people look to wikipedia than any debate or interview watching. For one thing, it's much more time efficient. For another, you get more than just pre-packaged sound bites and prepared lines of attack. To be fair though, I suppose we should include candidate websites as well.
I'm not sure why not having to be registered with the party whose primary it is has any relevance here, and I'm not sure why you think that's important in this context.
Sorry, brain fart. I meant open convention.
That's essentially what's going on right now.
The fact that this torch-passing is happening in an organized fashion, as opposed to "at the actual convention" is irrelevant. Having a contested nomination at the convention (in Chicago, no less) would be "a bad idea."
A bad idea? Protesters got major concessions from the Democratic party that improved the primary process markedly. It's still shit, but it's not a bunch of white guys smoking cigars in a back room. Fostering democracy isn't a bad idea. Protesting isn't a bad idea. Mayor Daley with the blessing of the DNC cracking down on protests with over the top police violence is a bad idea. Just don't do that and it will be fine. What kind of a pussy country curtails the political process out of fear of protests? That's some despotic shit.
Where are the public discourse between the candidates? Who in media is informing voters of the options? When the media establishment conspires with the political establishment to focus all discussion on a single candidate, that's not a healthy democracy. This is just back to cigars and back rooms.
Giving attention to the diversity of opinion under the Democratic party is healthy. The establishment always insists that any kind of contention is bad, but that's bullshit. Clinton and Obama had a contentious primary and he won the general. Sanders challenged Hillary with kid gloves and she lost the general. Trump had massively contentious primary and he won. Biden has a contentious primary and he won. Biden has a show primary this time and that worked out great!
This is the period when the people actually have some shred of influence over the party direction. We don't expect a fair primary because we know that the system is designed from the ground up to make that impossible. However, when we don't really get to run, that's not something I'm going to shut up about.
You guys are really going to complain about this? Seems like there's probably more effective ways to dissuade voters. Especially considering that incumbents usually always receive nomination unopposed, and no one has opposed her.
What "guys" do you think I represent? Where did I try to dissuade voters. That's the opposite of what I want. Know what dissuades voters? When politicians choose to rule and manipulate instead of represent.
I swear to God that if there were a manual for how to foster a fascist backlash the Democrats wouldn't be missing a single step. This undemocratic bullshit is exactly the kind of neoliberal shenanigans that tilled the soil for the growth of MAGA in the first place.
I dunno man, complaining about the part of the democratic process where you get to vote your party's candidate seems pretty basic democracy to me, but I must not understand American "democracy" 🤷
It would be great if we had a system like that, but we never have and it is not part of the constitution. Political parties have always been allowed to choose any candidate by any means that they want to put on their ticket. They could even choose 2 people, but that would be a bad idea. This will continue to be true as long as we have first past the post elections (and the electoral college). Ranked choice voting would solve some of these problems.
The democratic election happens when we vote for the president. The primaries are basically large state by state polls. No one's ability to vote was stolen and everyone who votes is still allowed to write in a name if they choose (but that is akin to not voting given our current system).
Quit abusing the word "democracy" like that. A country picking one of two choices handed to them by oligarchs is not democracy.
Activists labored for decades and died in police crackdowns to achieve the concession of primary elections from the two parties. You are pissing on their sacrifices. We don't give up hard won rights just because they aren't explicitly mandated by the constitution.
Ranked choice voting would fix these concerns.
Agreed, but that's not really relevant as to whether or not we should wait for the convention for the delegates to choose. The primary election is done.
They are waiting for the convention to choose, these choices are not made yet. They do, however, still have first amendment protections, so if they want to tell CNN who they plan to vote for, then they may. CNN, enjoying freedom of the press, has the right to ask.
It's wagging the dog. The delegates declare support now, the media runs with that and treats Harris as the obvious winner while ignoring other candidates. By the time the convention happens the public has already accepted Harris as the winner, making it inevitable.
Well, it pretty much is inevitable. Nobody else really wants the job on such short notice. President is something you want to prepare for, have a good, solid plan, with people you're planning on staffing your presidency with. You usually start the groundwork years in advance, to avoid failure with extraordinary consequences once you are actually in office. There's reasons Whitmer, for instance, simply endorsed Harris even though a lot of people wanted her to be the nominee.
Even Manchin waffled on it in his interview, and he's a colossally arrogant asshole.
This is testament to how deceived you are by whatever media you consume. There were no other candidates who were allowed into the public discourse, but there were plenty of other candidates running. If there were an actual primary there would have been a lot more.
Names?
At any rate, I don't think it's the DNC's job to support any specific candidate. They made that mistake with Hilary vs Bernie, and hopefully learned from the blowback they subsequently received.
It is an individual candidate's responsibility to create their own public discourse, this is the process of campaigning. Otherwise it becomes too tempting to use a Presidential run simply to increase one's own individual fame.
Lastly, perhaps I should have been more specific. I don't think any strong candidates want the job. I'm sure plenty of weak candidates and frankly, foolish people, would love to have the job because they wrongly think it wouldn't be that hard.
Find the names yourself. It will be a good exercise in media literacy. They aren't hidden.
When did I say it's the DNC's job to support a specific candidate, or are you agreeing with me? In any case, it sure doesn't look like they learned anything.
I don't trust your judgement as to who makes a strong or weak candidate. I certainly don't trust the judgement of a party establishment that backed Hillary in 2016 and Biden this year.
Yeah, I think you're just throwing random bullshit around and have no interest in wasting my own time.
You seem to be asserting that you think the DNC should elevate lesser-known candidates to equal stature of a well-known candidate, instead of leaving it to the candidates themselves.
I do not think the DNC should elevate anyone anywhere. They should not support a popular candidate, but they also should not support a lesser-known candidate. They should set a reasonable bar where all candidates that can prove themselves serious, unaided, can participate equally in DNC sponsored events. This should keep out fame seekers that want the profile boost, I have no interest in what some author that wants to sell more books to gullible idiots has to say.
Fine, you're entitled to your own opinion I suppose.
Based on what? Me never saying anything of the sort?
This is exactly what I'm saying. Would you say that's happening? What presidential candidates will be given equal time to Harris for a floor speech at the convention? Where were the 2024 primary debates?
Marianne Williamson is every establishment wonk's favorite "unserious" candidate. Yet she somehow did better than a lot of "serious" candidates in the 2020. Who is or is not a "serious" candidate is dictated by the political and media establishments.
You said earlier you thought a reasonable bar for entering a debate was sound. Now you seem to be complaining about there being no debates even though the only challengers could not meet a reasonable bar. Bit dishonest?
Whatever significant candidates wish to run should be given some floor time. Let me know when one stands up.
No, who is/is not a serious candidate is dictated by the strength of the campaigner and voters. A strong campaigner is able to fundraise from like-minded supporters, as Obama famously did with small-dollar donors that enabled him to match Hilary's formidable fundraising prowess and obvious establishment support. This establishment/media conspiracy you seem to like is in your head.
Oh, and Williamson never broke 5% vs only 2 other people. In 2020 there were almost two dozen participants.
There were challengers that got the required signatures in 49-50 states. That's not a reasonable bar for a single debate? The key is that word "reasonable". The bar we have now is that the establishment media grants them that label, and that's not reasonable. The press is supposed to be adversarial to power, but today's mainstream media literally represents power and the status quo.
It's not exactly a conspiracy, at least not in the mode of a secret cabal of powerful shadowy figures pulling the strings. However, it is absolutely real and understanding it is critical to media literacy. What kind of salary do you think a talking-head makes on MS-NBC? Right out of the gate, how do you think that impacts their perspective on the status quo? I know you see it clearly at Fox "News", but you don't think it exists at CNN?
What about local news, that's pretty independent? The context of this video was part of the reaction that mainstream media had when their cultural hegemony started slipping due to the explosion of independent media. They have largely solved the "problem" now, since strong-arming social media to favor "trustworthy" news sources. The definition of "trustworthy" includes Fox BTW, but excludes all independent news. This was achieved by dragging social media CEOs in front of congress and threatening a massive regulation regime.
Better than Harris with the exception of a two day bump she got by calling out Biden for bad racial policy. Also, 5% with two dozen participants puts her over the average.
The press is supposed to report fact as it exists, not be adversarial to power. Sometimes this will be in support of power, other times, as the NYT ripping into Biden post-debate was, will be adversarial. The signatures are easy to get, that's just a petition campaign. The bar should be some modest amount of popularity, I think 5% support nationally is where I would personally set it. Again, this is to avoid fame-seeking behavior and the abuse of running for president for personal gain, which we already sometimes see, frankly.
The corporate media is certainly corrupted by their business interests, no question. It's not about what one individual anchor or personality makes, but what the shareholders demand in terms of increasing their subscriber base and advertiser revenue in search of greater profits. Fortunately the corporate media does not wield nearly the power it has in years past, they're slowly dying in the digital age due to huge amounts of competition.
I am aware of Sinclair, I think most mainstream dems are at this point, after John Oliver did a whole episode on them years ago. Your position here breaks down when you say they've "solved" their problem though. They have not. Independent media is still widely prevalent all over social media, as is even outright misinformation. Corporate media revenues are still decreasing in almost all cases, they are still dying.
I said she didn't break 5%, not that she got 5%. She got far, far less. Her support even in her own state was less than 5%. Regarding Harris, she's simply moving up on the same ticket now that Biden is finishing out his term and retiring. I agree she did not have significant primary support and was never directly selected by voters. The time to challenge her for the nomination, if anyone wanted to, would be right now. But when even Manchin, a moderate independent now, declines to, I find that unlikely. Harris is an excellent chance to beat Trump, and that's what democratic voters want. Not a strong progressive or fresh faced challenger offering "real change".
I also want more choices, such as provided by ranked choice voting. However to say that our elections aren't democratic is far worse of an insult to the sacrifices of the labors of prior generations. Voters may still choose anyone that they want, and that ability to choose is better in our system than it is in many other places in the world. It's not the best though, and I would like to see us get there. But it is not fair to say that our election (run by the government) is no longer democratic just because an independent 3rd party is now going to register a different person on the ballots than their initial polling suggested.
Nonsense. They would almost certainly agree. It's better in a lot of ways, but it's not democracy to pick between two establishment choices. It's just not.
It was never Democratic in the first place. I've been fighting this fight for over 25 years, and I'm a latecomer. However, it's not "just because" of that one thing. This is the moment we are in right now, so it's what I'm engaged with right now.
It's sounds like the democracy we have is not the one that you want. That's fine, it's also not the one I want. Again, I'd prefer to be able to choose between a range of progressive candidates. But either way they are both still democracies and we should keep on asking for better systems. I disagree that what we have is a completely undemocratic system, that would imply that our system is similar to Russia's or NK's and it simply isn't.
Asking for a better system is exactly what I'm doing, and look how everyone closes ranks against the guy not towing the party line.