this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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We don't need to pull the marketplace of ideas thing when the "ideas" being defended are things like "I don't think LGBTQ+ people should exist / are sinners".
aka the paradox of tolerance which isn’t a paradox but a treaty but people know the name “paradox of tolerance”. we’re in pretty good philosophical company on this one: slippery slope and “but free speech” arguments have clear counters
That's exactly when we need it. It's OK that other people think differently on the Internet.
Frankly? When the thing they think is bigotry, no it is not ok. This isn't a casual difference of opinion, it's discrimination - thinking that an immutable part of someone's identity is a fundamental sin.
We do not need to adhere to free speech absolutism, and we do not need to equally entertain all ideas and opinions. We are human beings, not abstract concepts that adhere to ideological purity - we can make exceptions.
So disagree then. Even though I think your suggestions are as dangerous as the bigotry, it's a part of the diversity of thought I'd like to see in an online forum. There are 2.6 billion christians in the world and 1.7 billion muslims. And according to you they should all be deplatformed. That's more than half the worlds population instantly dismissed by you as bigots because they believe in the book of fairy tales they were taught to believe in. I disagree pretty strongly with their views, but they have a right to exist on the internet. Unless they're actively organising a pogrom or a crusade, you're not helping anyone by deplatforming them. And even then, they'll just find another place to organise it - personally I'd like to keep it visible. Both as an early warning system, and as a chance to have the sunlight do the disinfecting.
I don't think all of those people hate LGBT.
And, honestly, to think that deplatforming bigotry is just as dangerous as bigotry is absurd to the point where I don't think any reasonable discussion could be had here anymore.
Running around deplatforming people who think Bad Things but haven't hurt anyone is seriously anti-enlightenment, and I think it's equally absurd you can't see the danger in it. But I am still glad that we have a place that we can have this conversation.
“People who think bad things but haven't hurt me personally, ergo they haven't hurt anyone”
Why don't you go ask trans people in Florida whether Christian bigotry has hurt them or not
Or were you just talking about physically hurting people? Because it would be naive to think that's the only way you can make someone suffer. It's also not true, Christian extremists have attacked and even killed trans people and continue to do so.
Awesome. You've definitely changed my mind. Let's get em! In the name of tolerance let us make sure there is no safe space for anyone to discuss the Bad Things. This is sure to be effective at reducing the proliferation of bad ideas, and certainly does not undermine the marketplace of ideas.
What about the phrase "sunlight is the best disinfectant"?. You can allow people to air their opinions (regardless of whether you believe they're bigoted or not) and it'll hurt their cause. Alex Jones is nothing but a meme now because of having a platform.
Doesn't banning these people prove their ideas and conspiracies right and force them deeper underground?
If they aren't promoting literal violence, leave them be. Just because they upset some people isn't a reason to ban them.
The Westboro Baptist Church is a prime example of airing their foul opinions causing almost a complete exodus and switch on behalf of the church members. If you think you're right, try to convince them.
If you want to talk to them, go somewhere they congregate and talk to them. It's not like such places are rare on the internet. Not everywhere needs to be a platform for hate.
You do realise that every single social platform favours your way of thinking? You are pretending like you aren't fully in charge.
All you need to do is shout "my feelings!" and you get results. Like toddlers shouting for cookies.
Really? 4chan does? How about exploding-heads? reddit? What unmitigated horseshit.
You're whining that bigots aren't welcome here. Your poor feelings. There's already too many places that are as stormfront-y as you'd prefer. Not everywhere has to be.
There were a total of 12 threads there and not one of them was the slightest bit bigoted. Get a grip.
Well, that first thread on your list there was in response to the bigotry that informed rule 8.
If you want to talk to me again, please refrain from huge pointless text dumps.
You're the one claiming they are like stormfront, and I've just shown otherwise. Want to try again?
No, scroll waaaaaay up and re-read what I wrote. I said that bigots already have many platforms on which they were welcome. The guy defending bigots whined that this isn't one of them. I said that he was upset because he would prefer everywhere to be more like stormfront.
All you did was dump a wall of text that omitted the bigotry central to the discussion. Because not only are you irritating enough to dump a wall of text in the service of bigotry, you're dishonest enough to deny it where it exists.
Not every site is obligated to be complicit in the spread of bigotry. No good community welcomes bigots.
So, why not install one of the members there as mod to clean up the rule (which has never been enforced). As it is, it's been nuked - the community name is banned forever, and the members are sol.
edit: The community was deleted less than an hour after this thread went up, there was no effort made to correct the problem whatsoever.
They were removed for being bigots.
Good. Hope to see the admins doing so consistently.
Sure there was. The problem was solved by the ban.
When the "opinions" being aired discriminate against other people or could lead to an avoidable death from dangerous misinformation, it should not be allowed.
Deplatforming works. Yes, banned people will leave and try to congregate somewhere else - but it is better that they are removed, so that the impressionable and the vulnerable are not hurt by their bigotry or misinformation. Besides, how many people have you honestly seen have a core belief successfully challenged and changed on the internet?
I was one of those people, I've been changed. I know a lot of other people too. Maybe try to look outside of an echo chamber sometime.
Same here, and the orthodoxy enforcement brigade here reminds me a whole lot of the conservative religious folk I grew up around. Bizarre.
Alex Jones and everyone else hurt so many people in such awful ways because he was allowed to.
Then there's reddit and facebook and youtube comments and 4chan and twitter and bluesky and threads and so on. Not everywhere has to be welcoming to bigots just because you like them more than the minorities they hate.
Now you're getting it! People can think differently about stuff and that's OK.
They already have places where bigotry is as welcome as you'd prefer. They can go there.