Ask Lemmy

After I got a little older and past that weird age when it reverses and women are in the highest peak of their sexuality and men are half way out the door, I really started to hate these interactions. I feel like now I understood how every pretty girl felt about me when I bothered them. Not in a horrible creepy way, don't worry I give up super easily. I always take no for an answer.

But she has no way to know that, and a lifetime of evidence to suggest that your attitude isn't the universal male perspective. Since she doesn't know you personally, the risk outweighs whatever benefit she gets from the high five.

I think I know what the user means. Trust me (yeah sure random internet person), you have no idea how often the most innocuous stuff gets used as an opening, a justification to keep bothering someone. Some guy asks for the time? Suddenly he also wants to know your name and do you want to have a drink? Some guy asks where x building is? Oh well, have you lived here long? I'm new here, maybe we could get together? Or it's "does this tram go to x station?" and then, fuck, you're stuck in a moving tram without an easy escape and the guy keeps asking why he can't have your phone number, even though you already said no and then you lied about having a boyfriend, but still he won't give up. Playing along with someone, being nice, trying to help them with innocuous stuff, 8 out of 10 times it doesn't end there at all.

Before I get a bunch of downvotes: No, it's not every guy. We know it's not every guy. But most of us don't want to sit through 6 creeps just on the off-chance of meeting a nice person. It's just not worth it. And yes, it's always guys who do this. I've never had a woman following me after giving her directions. I've never had a woman keep pushing me after I said no (and I'm sure they exist, crappy women exist, but usually I feel perfectly safe responding to women - so sue me, confirmation bias).

Edit: Just to respond to your specific situation. I think I might have given you the high five if you'd been at it for a little bit and I'd seen you do it to everyone else and not acting like a creep. The fact that it's a bar scene and a social environment makes it all a little easier, imo. Most of my examples, real experiences btw, always happen in non-social scenes, like when going to work, or while doing groceries, etc. So in your case, I probably would have. But just to point out: it wasn't about you personally, basically a bunch of creeps ruined it for you.

I know it's not all men, every woman knows it's not all men. But I think the best analogy I ever heard for describing the way women need to treat men as a whole is the same way people should treat guns. In gun safety class they teach you to treat every gun like it is loaded until you are certain it's not, and even then it is always better to act with caution. I heard stories of my great uncle who was cleaning his rifle and he "knew for a fact without a doubt that it was unloaded" and he blew a hole through his foot and the floor. I'd rather not blow a hole in my foot because someone said a gun was unloaded and I just trusted them without double-checking. I'd rather not interact with a man I don't know so I can avoid getting harassed or hurt. The best advice for men, according to my guy friends that I have that I trust to treat women with respect and back them up in situations where they are uncomfortable, is: call other men on their shit. If a man is harassing a woman when she's said no, if a man is following a woman, if they are "just talking" but she looks super uncomfortable and he is encroaching on her personal space, interfere. Walk up, ask if she is okay, ask if you can get an authority for her. If the guy then becomes irritated with you for getting in the way, don't back down. Get between him and the woman and tell her she can get somewhere safe. If it's in a parking garage tell her she can get to her car and drive away, If it's at a bar tell her she can go to the bartenders or the bouncer and ask for help. If it's a guy friend of yours and you see them behaving that way, call them out and tell them to stop. It's uncomfortable, it could lose you a friendship, but if no one calls men on their behavior, if MEN don't call other men on their behavior, the men who don't think women are people and deserve respect will never stop behaving that way. Because if only women are telling them what they're doing is wrong, they will never listen. Because they don't consider women people. And when I say they don't consider women people I don't mean they think they're animals, they just actually don't believe women have autonomy, have minds of their own and the ability to say no and mean it and have that decision for themselves be respected. "No means yes" is a way for men to convince themselves that women aren't capable of making decisions for themselves and that you need to take control of them FOR them because they are incapable of making their own decisions. If you would like women to stop being afraid of men then men need to tell each other that the behavior that causes women to be afraid of them is unacceptable.

Just to be clear, this is not meant to be an admonition to you. You asked why we don't high five, I gave you an answer. My answer didn't seem to click for you as a valid thing that made sense so I'm trying to explain the reasoning behind it more thoroughly so you can actually understand where women are coming from. You might not be a bad person, but if we're not sure we're not going to interact with you because how can we possibly know?

I know it doesn't feel good to be treated like a loaded weapon when you are just trying to be a happy person. But before you respond in denial of my perspective, because it hurts you to have people be afraid of you when you didn't do anything wrong, think of how it would feel to have a gun pointed in your face and for you to have no idea if it's loaded or not. Can you blame women for shutting down or for shutting you down when confronted with that possiblity?

What the other commenter said, about it being more likely for women to respond in kind if you've been doing it with all the other people and it's a social setting, is true, but instead of being persistent if someone chooses not to high five you, instead smile and switch to a thumbs up and then just move on. The less of a problem you make of it when a woman decides not to interact with you the safer you will be to the women around you and the less likely you will be to be treated like a weapon.

I hope this helps you understand my perspective a little better, I hope this gives you some understanding the next time you feel shut down for seemingly no reason, and, most especially, I hope this helps you see the behavior of other men from the viewpoint of women and that you decide to help keep women safe when they feel uncomfortable.

Thanks for taking the time to ask, and thanks for taking the time to read my responses.