155
Democrats decry Biden executive order turning away some asylum seekers | US-Mexico border
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2024
155 points (94.3% liked)
News
23406 readers
3129 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
USA doesn't control the source of the problem, which are random-ass civil wars that occur in Central America or South America.
What we do control are the legal limits of accepting immigrants. But remember that while the jobs market can likely accept more bodies, our housing market doesn't have enough housing for a population boom.
Immigration law exists so that we can better plan jobs/housing/etc. etc. it's a good thing in the abstract to control, no matter how sad the stories are of the people we turn away.
That being said: I'm overall supportive of more immigrants in this economy. Jobs are a major factor and it's really 'Just Housing's that's a practical consideration. If we can get Congress + States to pass housing starts laws, then we can absolutely accept more immigrants in a way that'd benefit our country.
Interesting, if largely incorrect opinion.
When your country supports multiple international coups because of a fruit company.
#SoRandomLOL
What fruit company existed in Venezuela that's related to today's (largely) Venezuelan migrant population?
Hint: you're talking about the wrong portion of the world if we're focusing on today's migrant crisis. Venezuela was oil and has a completely different set of circumstances than you might believe.
2018 was Northern Triangle that at least is somewhat related to fruit company (albeit a hundred years later, but whatever. If you want to ignore modern history so much so bet it, at least you're somewhat correct for the Northern Triangle migrants). But 2024 is Venezuelan migrants under a completely separate issue.
My joke was primarily about previous vintages where US policy was a direct factor resulting in later waves of immigration. I wasn't talking specifically about Venezuela or anywhere really. The later immigration appears 'random' only because of a superficial analysis of US policy and its consequences.
I mean you can point to like.. maybe all of US policy towards Venezuela post 1998 in this same light. Sanctions, election interference, etc.. This isn't to say that the US controls the worlds destiny, but I would say peak US hegemony was maybe 2005-2010? Like we're definitely on the other side of that, but it had its consequences.
And completely ignore Hugo Chavez? Why? Hugo Chavez actually was in charge of Venezuela for the bulk of the period you're talking about.
I know that Lemmy is filled with Marxists who want to have as favorable of a viewpoint of Communism as possible. But... uhhhh... Hugo Chavez and his successor haven't exactly made Venezuela into a utopia.
What I do know, is decades of Hugo Chavez (and now Maduro) rule has led into Venezuela's current predicaments. And that's directly led, as in these are the people who actually controlled the country and built it up for what it is over the last nearly 30 years.
USA has foreign policy influence for sure, but the bulk of Venezuela's problems are Venezuala's alone to deal with. We aren't responsible for the vast majority of decisions over there.
But whatever. If those migrant waves are coming to USA looking for hopes, dreams and opportunity, I'm on their side. There's benefits to accepting the dreamers who make such a long trip. We have housing issues to deal with (and other population issues), but we can probably afford letting some of them in.
It didnt work for the joke.
The "Northern Triangle" migrants of 2018 (El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras) had nothing to do with any US Policy. We had to deal with the major wave of immigrants anyway. https://sgp.fas.org/crs/row/IF11151.pdf
Today's wave of migrants is the 2024 ongoing collapse of Venezuela. Which is everything to do with shitty Venezuelan politics, and again nothing to do with the USA.
I'm well aware of Banana Republics of decades ago. But its rather stupid to blame everything on the USA when the recent migrant wave has more to do with local issues like MS-13 (2018 era), or the handoff of Hugo Chávez to Nicolás Maduro (Venezuela).
I don't think I wanna ask the US "congressional research service" about the effects of US imperialism. Something tells me they have a bias, but I can't quite put my finger on why.
And bullshit from Central American nationalists who have dumbass conspiracy theories about CIA boogiemen aren't exactly a good source of information either. I know that Venezuela wants to blame everyone else for their problems, but their arguments don't even pass the barest of muster.
We all know what the USA was focused on in the last 30 years. The bulk of US effort was in Afghanistan, Iraq/Syria, with more recent focus on Ukraine, China, and now Israel.
Blaming the USA for random ass shit that happens in I dunno, Venezuela's shitty socialist takeover of their energy grid (leading into large-scale blackouts) and trying to tie US Policy to that is... well... a conspiracy theory. Sure, nationalists from beyond our southern border can believe whatever the fuck they want, but I'll call them out on the bullshit. Venezuela fucked their own country over, and we're doing those migrants a favor by letting them in.
I'm happy for us to do our duty to take in those who qualify for sanctuary, or otherwise need such assistance. But USA has other concerns that we still need to balance against that (such as our housing shortage, that'd be complicated with more migrants). I think we can make it work in any case but its not going to be easy (or politically easy at that to even decide on a path forward).
In any case, letting in a bunch of US haters would be against my policy anyway. There's too many people in line as it is, so if they don't want to accept the USA's side of the story, they can just stay out of our country.
What's going on in the world and what you choose to pay attention to are two very different things.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14263/
Lulz. You mean led to the large scale blackouts of an energy rich / oil rich nation. Amirite?
That's a laughably inaccurate document you've got there. Clearly socialist / Marxist propaganda. But lets say, hypothetically, that you took away the electrical networks from the people who knew how to run them... directly leading to widespread power outages within a year, leading to a loss of industry and migrant waves to escape the country.
And you want to blame the USA for this? While also rewarding those who made such dumbass moves in their country?
LOL. Do you actually think the US experience with privately run electrical grids are well run?
Your grasp of the dynamics that impacted Venezuela are driven entirely by simplistic propaganda. I'm not taking on the task of educating you while you fight with nonsense at every turn. I've led a horses ass to water. If the ass shits in it, that's just what asses do.
With all due respect, that's 7+ million migrants who are leaving Venezuela who very much disagrees with your opinion on that subject.
Yes. Our electrical grid is better than Venezuela. And if you really want to choose this hill to die on, be my guest. But this is really weird for you to get a hard on to the marxist/socialist utopia that is Venezuela. Methinks you'll have a better job talking about other locations of the world and taking your L here before you get too wrapped up in the peculiarities of this debate.
That's fine. My goal here is to demonstrate that Venezuela's system is so shit its causing a massive migration wave to come to the USA.
We need to be aware of the migrant population's situation and understand their story. Each migrant wave is different. In the next 4+ years, whenever the next migrant wave comes, it will be a new story from a new country. If you want to get caught up in the peculiarities of Marxist Leninist theories of these failed countries, be my guest. Or... not get caught up. Whatever you want, its fine.
We got migrants to worry about. So all that's off topic anyway. But I'm generally willing to bet against the country that all these migrants are leaving from.
I mean, how much of the power of gangs in US, Mexico, CA, SA, is a direct result of US drug policy?
I mean, the biggest thing indirectly being caused by the USA is maybe climate change, which has caused waves of famine, drought, hurricanes... and further disasters like Volcanic Erruptions wrecked the Northern Triangle in the 2010s. This all culminated in a temporary migrant wave under the Trump administration.
But that is not Biden's issue today. Biden's issue is largely one of Venezuelan in origin because of all that other crap happening totally elsewhere for completely different reasons.
I know people want to pretend that the USA had some major role to play in all of this, but its just bullshit. We had some major events about 100 years to 50 years ago. But we all know where the bulk of modern USA has been (and that's in the Middle East, at least since 2000s).
Do you think the sanctions had some impact?
Not as much as the 7 million emigrants who left Venezuela for other countries.
I keep coming back to the power outages of recent years in Venezuela because they're indicative of everything that's going wrong. Venezuela doesn't have enough technicians who even know how to fix the energy grid, because the vast majority of them left for other countries. Yes, some of them are migrants who are entering USA, but also countries like Panama or Mexico.
When your country suffers from huge emigrant waves, especially emigrants who were statistically the smartest and most well-educated of the country... bad shit begins to happen.
Why do you think they left?
Among many other things, electricity stopped working in any reliable fashion, leading to major issues internally.
Electricity stopped working because of decades of corruption of the Chavez / Maduro Regime, which forcibly took over the electrical grid and installed corrupt officials. No matter how much money Chavez pumped into the energy grid, it was all wasted in corruption.
The people who knew how to run the grid were then replaced by Maduro (albeit yeah, they were corrupt but... they at least knew how to run the system), and then shit really started to crazy because no one knew how to run the grid anymore and rolling blackouts became regular.
Lather rinse repeat for every other element of society. Remember that Venezuela is an oil state with plenty of energy reserves. They have plenty of chemical energy, its literally just the lack of brain that's collapsing their society right now.
Ironically, electricity was more reliable when the USA's AES Corporation owned the Electricidad de Caracas. So ummmm... maybe we should have pushed for more US intervention on this particular issue.
From a USA perspective: the migrants include the energy specialists who used to run Venezuela's energy. But are now frustrated at this situation to the point that they're leaving the country. Its to our benefit to capture those talented individuals and integrate them into our society. So Venezuela's loss can serve as our gain if we play our cards right.
We caused a majority of the problems to prevent communism so yeah we're a source of the problems
For today, in 2024, is the ongoing Venezuelan collapse.
Communism is not your savior to the argument, not with respect to the legion of Venezuelan migrants traveling to the USA. We had nothing to do with Venezuela's current set of issues., The random ass set of autocratic rule + socialist ideals of modern Venezuela have more to do with the troubles in that country than shit we did 50 years ago.
Yes I'm sure that has nothing to do with previous destabilizing efforts done by the USA. Everything started in 2024
USA had nothing to do with Nicolás Maduro disasterous takeover of their electricity system, leading to widespread brownouts of 2019. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Venezuelan_blackouts
Get your head out of the USA's asshole. The world is bigger than just us. There's like, local politics and local issues at play here that absolutely have bigger effects on the current migration than any shit the CIA did decades ago.
It's not like it's all ancient history. Sanctions are ongoing, there was the attempted coup with Operation Gideon, plus the weird attempt with Guaido, propaganda campaigns, etc. and how many things we don't know about. The US is still meddling. They are the largest empire in the world, the sole superpower. Of course they can do a lot of things and have a lot of affect. Of course Venezuela has a lot of itself to blame for its problems, like not diversifying from oil more, but you're going too far the other direction and acting as if the US has no effect on its own sphere of influence.
Venezuela is literally nationalizing US investments, effectively stealing from the USA. Sanctions that punish them for taking our resources is fair. Yeah, Venezuela's Maduro regime wants to piss off the local Superpower. Lets see how that plays out. We don't have to trade with them. Sanctions aren't meddling, its just "we're gonna stop trading with you". If you don't like that, then don't piss us off. If you want to have US trade again, then try to make amends. But Hugo Chavez and Maduro have been actively trying to piss off the USA for the last 3 decades, because they're fucking brilliant at foreign policy, amirite?
Silvercorp isn't the CIA. If it were the CIA, you'd know it. USA has god damn supercarriers by the way, we wouldn't need to use paramilitary action to fuck over Venezuela if we really wanted to.
Do you see Ukraine? Afghanistan? Iraq? Syria? Libya? That's what USA-based meddling is. You'd know when we meddle, I promise. All the meddling that Hispanics complain about are largely conspiracy theories. And you know what? I don't really blame them per se, their world is collapsing and they need someone to lash out against. And USA is the biggest target for that.
Whatever. Keep the assholes out, but welcome the migrants who are happy enough to call USA their home.
You're gonna have to explain to me why Argentina needs this conspiracy-based "secret meddling" but isn't important enough for the "real meddling" that we do.
Maduro has little to do with previous meddling from the United States. He's directly from Chávez who was the one who attempted a Coup on Carlos Andrés Pérez, likely what we could consider the last US friendly leader.
Chávez was the Venezuelan answer to US meddling and when he came to power. At some point we have to accept that the people and their elected government are at the wheel. Venezuela made a call to put way too many of their chips into the oil markets, no one forced them to bank so heavily on oil, they made that call themselves.
With next to nothing as a follow up, they're suffering from economic missteps. Additionally, any international help that's been extended, Venezuela has turned it down. Maybe for the best as they're worried that the international help is more foreign meddling. But again, that's Venezuela to make that choice.
What the US did is understandable to be angry about, but at some point it is less about meddling that the US did and poor economic choices and corrupt government rule that has brought about where they are today. I know a lot of people want to seriously blame the US and there's some rationale behind that. But where the Venezuelan economy sits today, that's squarely on the elected officials of Venezuela.
Now does that mean that the current situation there should make us turn everyone away? Absolutely not. At least in my opinion. I think that's where me and @[email protected] will disagree. What's happening is horrible and we should not lose our humanity towards others just because it is slightly inconvenient. But that's on Congress in the United States to address as they're the ones that can approve new asylum programs.
Many countries have offered to help including the US. Venezuela doesn't want it. Again, maybe the paranoia we instilled is what causes that denial, maybe the US just makes a good effigy. But we have to accept the answer Venezuela gives about other people trying to help, that's how we demonstrate that our determination to actually stop meddling with countries south of the border. Because given the current situation there, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult for the US to setup partisans and begin an effort to overthrow the government, if they so wanted to.
As horrible the situation is, as much as we shouldn't close our border, this mess is very much Venezuela's making.
You should look up the history of USAID. It would probably make any country nervous when they get involved.
Or maybe, to understand Venezuela, you should look up the history of Venezuela.
That's all I'm trying to say. Venezuela is the #1 determining factor of what happens in Venezuela. This is absolutely outside of the USA's control, no matter how much random nationalists from South America complain.
If we really wanted to mess with a country with collapsing infrastructure, large-scale emigration, and a massive oil reserve like Venezuela... we probably could do so and also do so at a good profit. But honestly? We don't. Our attention and resources are diverted elsewhere (like... at the massive migration wave hitting our border). I'd probably support more interventions because its the only way the migrant waves will stop.
Fortunately, Mexico is on our side on this issue. USA + Mexico can work together to build a more controlled border at Mexico's southern border to better control migrants / filter them out. I'm not against accepting more migrants btw, but the shear number of them arriving is far beyond the resources we've allocated to the border and Congress isn't allowing us to allocate more judges. Mexico is also getting pissed at these migrant waves coming through their country.