this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
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Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year... Maybe calling them "dipshits" isn't an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit.. Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you're trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasn't even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that haven't even cast a ballot for Biden. And we're already absolutely inundated with "You have to vote for him or you're a traitor to your nation!" hyperbole.
You'd think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become President... six months early?
There's simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasn't been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didn't unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages aren't high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head I'd rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldn't need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but here's a highlight reel:
And he won't stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
Democrats can't win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is 'Biden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for him'
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say they'd do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. There's no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
I’m a progressive, volunteered for Bernie’s campaigns. I don’t remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you don’t have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where “not voting for the least bad option” equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that that’s the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I haven’t heard is what’s the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Let’s say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing that’s supposed to happen? What’s the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, that's a worse situation)
If you'd like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasn't lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers aren't real and pray that this doesn't sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. That's what I'd do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I can't campaign on "yea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but he's not irredeemable" to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think it's far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate that's complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Biden’s support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt he’s browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I don’t really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. I’m concerned that Biden’s support for Israel will make him lose too. I don’t believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling “plutocracy in democracy clothing” means we won’t be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
And I just can’t figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isn’t doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Biden’s unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
If I believe that Biden will lose because of a position he's taken himself, and i believe that nothing I say could sway the people we need to vote in November even if I could make it convincing, what else is there to do but anything to get Biden to reverse course?
The sad thing here is that Biden is able to move on things. He was essentially republican before the 2020 primary! Bernie and Warren had a lot to do with that. You campaigned for Bernie, you already know that!
I think if progressives are loud enough, the people in Biden's circle can break through to him. I'm more optimistic than you are.
We lost the 2016 election because moderates were overconfident and condescending to their constituents; if nothing else I will cut them down, even a little, so they might not repeat that mistake.
Ok so to summarize.
We both think his position on Israel is a shit position that imperils his election.
Few questions for you in good faith.
Honestly I wish I had your optimism that we could work towards making a substantial change here to the course of events. I find what’s happening reprehensible, monstrous even. I took part in the Iraq war protests, took a bus from Ohio to DC to march in what was at the time one of the largest protests. Got there and was pepper sprayed by Capitol police but stayed in the fight, organized protests in Columbus in support of Medicare for all. I still work in my local community to try to make things better, but I found that “being loud’ even being historically loud didn’t move the needle because the system they taught me in school about how America works and the reality of how America really works are so different. Our representatives spend more time dialing for dollars calling up and begging the donor class for donations than they do legislating.
That’s the perspective I come into this with, almost 30 years of being told to organize, protest, vote. That the pendulum would swing back. Go read some of the comments on any YouTube video covering campus protests, see how much glee the right takes from watching the police crack down on them. What should we do when the tools they tell you will lead to your freedom energize your opponents and leave the people that supposedly represent you unmoved?
You're right that I left a crucial element out of my admittedly simplistic two step process. We should pressure Biden to be better and to stop supporting the genocide in Gaza.
I consider myself to be solidly left, maybe not full-on progressive but supportive of many progressive policies. And I think Biden has been a good president when you consider the context he's been given. I don't have time to write it all out now, but if I did, I'd be glad to argue that Biden had been a good (not great) president. I think the millions who have had their student debt cancelled, bought OTC birth control, got off unemployment and into a job would agree.
Granted, Biden's campaign hasn't done a good job, groceries are still too damned expensive, and he hasn't stopped the genocide in Gaza. But, save a violent nationwide revolution, the 2024 presidential ballot is Biden vs. Trump. And, on the issue of the genocide, Trump has demonstrated he'd be an enthusiastic supporter of Israel, much more than Biden.
I am starting to believe that the OP type of people aren't actually Biden supporters or democrats but paid for Republicans/operatives who have market researched the most effective way to reduce voter turnout. Kind of like how cigarette companies were forced to make anti smoking ads and went with the least effective or most counter-effective campaigns they could go with.
Or maybe I know whats driving voter apathy is because I'm in the fucking group
It's like the closer I get to neddling exactly what should get you to act in your own self interest, the faster you dismiss it as covert meddling
If you just assume I'm a troll then you will never see the train that is barreling down the track toward you.
Democrats lose without the progressive vote.
#DEMOCRATS DO NOT HAVE THE PROGRESSIVE VOTE RIGHT NOW
#OR MAYBE YES THEY DO, YOU CERTAINLY DONT REPRESENT MY PROGRESSIVE VOTE WITH YOUR ARROGANT ASSUMPTIONS
[the above is just making an important distinction, not really yelling though the screen]
Reality includes nuance, recognition, and rationale.
How many threads and comments are you posting about local, state, and federal politics that are even more important than President?
What Congressional Representatives are you mad at about genocide support?
Who should we be voting for/against in primaries other than just Biden? What state lawmakers are supporting genocide and need to be engaged over it?
Where's the rest of your outrage for the little things that matter more than the optical illusion that is the Presidential race?
Or, alternatively, just recognize that you are now part of a distraction meant to disrupt American politics, and your cognitive dissonance prevents you from acknowledging certain realities, one of which is that your echo chamber is just an echo chamber. We all have to learn that eventually, or we will reap what we sow. The last time we really experienced a 'reap what you sow' in a Presidential election was in 2000 with Bush v. Gore. We got Bush, we got 9/11, then we got Iraq and Afghanistan wars that threw real people and families, in this country AND more so in the countries we invaded, into a murder meat grinder as a way to feed a military complex rather than feeding justice for the 9/11 dead. That is OUR modern legacy that must never be allowed to resurge. I'd argue we got lucky with Trump's first term in terms of a 'reap what you sow' scenario, he was far more of an incompetent greedy clown than a corruption evil genius than expected, but he seems to have come around to leaning in towards a much more focused corrupt evil clown this time around that will coincide with much worse consequences and outcomes for all of us if his circus act succeeds.
Not everyone is on the same page even among progressives, and here, you are seeming like another side of the same Trumpie coin by demanding the litmus test for ~~conservatives~~ Progressives be this ~~sleepy corrupt demonic racist~~ genocide Joe line-in-the-sand narrative that is blaringly, obviously, propagandized as commentary that will be reinforced to divide and dilute voters that recognize the real world danger of Trump and his rhetoric.
If genocide is what you are truly concerned about, wouldn't a better focus of your internet-commenter ire and time be demanding change directly at Netanyahu and Israel's government? They already had plenty of munitions and monetary support from the US for decades of suppression of the Palestinians' self determination. Where were you 5 years ago on a seemingly ongoing genocide of Palestinians? 10 years ago? 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 years ago when Israel was, based on a long history of not even just 'liberalized/progressive' media reports, accused of committing a genocide against Palestinians?
Biden is a half measure, but he's the only half way acceptable option we have based on the system we live in. We aren't going to have a civil war over this, and we can't change the Constitution before November. Yelling at the sky does not at all fix anything. Offer solutions, and if there is one that is a better option than voting for Biden to prevent far more corruption from Trump, let us know now.
I HOPE I'M WRONG
But it's just dumb to assume his rock-bottom approval is a mirage. And for its worth, I'd much rather be spending time thinking about literally any other race, but every fucking thread here is filled with self-congratulating affirmation that I can see literally anything but
I don't see any Israeli propogandists here, but if I did, i'd feel about as confident about changing their mind as I do about changing a trump supporter's mind. I happen to know progressives are upset; it's not hard, all I have to do is point to the genocidal shit he's doing. Everybody here agrees he needs to stop and yet laughably every criticism is couched in seven layers of 'but i'm voting for that fucker anyway' as if it's too strong of a threat to let that possibility COOK HIS ASS a little to get him to change, even if it's the obvious implication anyway. You all seem to be in a deep, deep pit of denial about this, and if I do nothing else but toss cold water on you for the next 5 months then i'll be happy.
We're 5 months out, we haven't even held the convention yet. If we get to octoboer and he's still a fucking POS, i'll start couching my screaming with those addition affirmations, too, if it makes you feel better.
But fuck you if you want me to stop screaming for him to do better, and fuck you for pretending to care yourself.
So, 'get in line' with your view, or 'fuck you', is your message.
Progressives, including myself, are upset at Biden, but we're not monolithic, and many of us are even reasonable grownups that don't let our rage dictate how we respond to situations with vitriol and insults, or with demands that everyone else conform to our individuals views or be dismissed. I get it on some level, you're obviously younger, I had the fervor of inexperienced passion with politics in my younger years as well. I actively try not to project my own shortcomings onto others to convince myself I'm right when I feel attacked. You're losing the plot and only seeing red.
Who should we be voting for/against in primaries other than just Biden?
How many threads and comments are you posting about local, state, and federal politics that are even more important than President?
What Congressional Representatives are you mad at about genocide support?
What state lawmakers are supporting genocide and need to be engaged over it?
Where’s the rest of your outrage for the little things that matter more than the optical illusion that is the Presidential race?
Biden is the middle ground Republican-light compromise coward and always has been, none of your screaming is going to make him stop talking from both sides of his mouth. If anything, he's had a few releases that were surprisingly harsher on Israel than some of us ever expected him to.
You are laser focused on the wrong-goddamn shit - looking for instant gratification by trying to make the story of the plight of Palestinians about Biden and a singular American election, when it's about so much more and could have stronger impacts if it was focused on actionable solutions rather than reactions to public statements.
Mmmmm... I thought this was directed towards the op of this comment thread... Not the original post you made. Good meme in my opinion
That'd explain the split vote count
Sorry for the stray if it was, but frankly the odds do not point in that direction
Yeah I know... The Dems probably are dumb enough to try the bullying tactic again, even though they have to know it lost them the election in 2016... Or maybe they have their heads so far up their own asses that they genuinely don't get it... Either way, it's like they're deliberately trying to alienate the very people who they need to show up and vote for them
Other left-wing spaces are so much better, but I shouldn't be surprised because .world de-federated with everyone to their left.
Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid troll!
Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid troll!
Yeah, seems right. These people seem like shills trying to discourage people from voting against the Republicans, that really seems to be all there is to it. They make any argument they can to discourage people from participating at all.
I've kinda been thinking the same thing
That's because you and @[email protected] have been trained since 2016 to see any dissent as foreign opposition to the point that you can't even see legitimate dissent anymore.
I was talking about the op of this comment thread... Not the original post... Bullying people to vote for Biden is a proven losing strategy. Dems and the shills they pay to troll on social media absolutely have to know this, so why would they continue to do what they know will drive people away and cause then to lose? The theory being, maybe they aren't Dems, maybe they're Rs pretending to be Dems... Personally, having worked closely with establishment Dems in the past, I honestly think they are dumb enough to try the bullying tactic again even though it lost them the election in 2016
Ah, I totally misread your comment. My apologies.