this post was submitted on 02 May 2024

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Do ya gotta do it? Do you really? Nah. (lemmy.ml)

submitted 6 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

176 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Just putting this up to contrast with this post and because Eli Valley is a great political cartoonist.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

One track has Palestinians tied to it, the other track has more Palestinians tied to it, Ukrainians and probably others tied to it, AND American minorities by the bushel.

Yeah wooooo go Biden so proud 🤣 vote democrat, we will probably be responsible for less death and suffering. New slogan right there. "SLIGHTLY! LESS! DEATH!"

It's a complicated situation though golly who knows how to fix this problem

We have to find the choice that is most achievable and least damaging.

The smart people know that. Only problem is that not all of the people are smart and they all have the same voting power

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

vote democrat, we will probably be responsible for less death and suffering. New slogan right there. “SLIGHTLY! LESS! DEATH!”

That's the slogan for every positive action throughout human history. We don't have the luxury of choices which hurt no one on the societal scale.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm not saying it's a bad decision given the situation. I'm saying the situation is dog shit and perhaps will come back to bite us in the ass when "slightly less death!" isn't the biggest motivation to get out and vote.

I would be more sympathetic to your point if Biden couldn't stop supporting this immediately with relative ease. Most voters are against what Israel is doing and especially democrats. It's not like it would hurt his election chances. It's not like the protests this has inspired are a good look anyway.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Most voters are against what Israel is doing and especially democrats. It’s not like it would hurt his election chances.

That's literally not true though.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/548084/americans-divided-involvement-middle-east.aspx

Americans Divided Over U.S. Support for Israel and the Palestinians Do you think the United States supports [Israel/the Palestinians] too much, about the right amount or too little? % Too much% Right amount% Too little% No opinion U.S. support for Israel U.S. adults 36 38 24 Republicans 26 37 37 Independents 40 36 22 Democrats 40 43 15

Most Americans, including most Democrats, think that the current level of support for Israel is either correct or too little.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

More recent poll:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx

Overall 55% disapprove of Israel's actions and only 36% approve, plus

Democrats, who were already largely opposed in November, are even more so now, with 18% approving and 75% disapproving.

And

Biden’s approval rating for his handling of the situation in the Middle East, at 27%, is his lowest among five issues tested in the survey.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Approval of Israel's military action is separate from approval for the current US support for Israel, as the numbers compared from November and March (from Gallup, in your poll) show (compared to the numbers, also from Gallup, in the poll I cited). 63% of Democrats in November disapproved of Israel's military action, yet, in December, 58% of Democrats still believed that US support for Israel was either appropriate or not enough. Again, both of those numbers, from the poll you cited and the one I did, are both from Gallup.

Man, if your argument is that people are fucking insane and don't pay enough attention to matters of civic importance, I'm onboard. But if your argument is that this is an easy win for Biden that he's just not taking, I don't think the evidence backs that up, as much as I wish it did.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I would stress that my original point about this polling was

Most voters are against what Israel is doing and especially democrats.

Which is true, as per the most recent poll.

63% of Democrats in November disapproved of Israel's military action, yet, in December, 58% of Democrats still believed that US support for Israel was either appropriate or not enough

But yeah good point. People are fucking stupid.

But if your argument is that this is an easy win for Biden that he's just not taking, I don't think the evidence backs that up, as much as I wish it did.

I think opinion has clearly shifted, as shown by the declining support for Israel's military action. Even the poll I cited is now months old. So it's likely less support funding them now. But yeah we don't know that so kind of a moot point.

But what is true is that people don't like Biden's handling of this issue (shown by polling), that people don't like what Israel is doing (polling) and that supporting genocide is bad (hopefully common sense).

So I don't know. Maybe condition aid on not committing fucking war crimes? I think in any case it's clear voters are not happy about Israel's actions and Biden's support for it obviously makes it more difficult for people to support him. If we insist in sticking with the polling and not necessarily morals, he should at least be clear in his condemnation of what they are doing.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I mean, I absolutely am in favor of Biden cutting off aid, at least conditionally (though honestly I'd be ecstatic if it was unconditional and permanent, fuck Israel). If it's a lose-lose situation, one should go with the more moral loss. I just also recognize that it's not a cut-and-dry strategic decision.

I hope that if the anti-Israel momentum continues, the pressure will cause Biden to shift - and considering his current responsiveness and his history of swaying with popular Dem opinion, I have hopes that he will if hostility towards Israel continues to increase in the Dem party.

Honestly, I didn't think we'd even make it this far. When Israel's disproportionate response to Oct 7th happened, I was well and truly prepared for the US electorate to shrug their shoulders and continue supporting Israel at the same rate like every other time this has happened in my lifetime. So maybe I'm more cynical than I should be on the matter.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

It's complicated for sure. I never thought it would get this far either.

I mean, I absolutely am in favor of Biden cutting off aid, at least conditionally (though honestly I'd be ecstatic if it was unconditional and permanent, fuck Israel). If it's a lose-lose situation, one should go with the more moral loss. I just also recognize that it's not a cut-and-dry strategic decision.

Agreed! I think conditionally cutting is best, make it clear you don't support war crimes and genocide while still having cover - "the funding is available, we just insist that international law is followed."