As an American, I agree.
this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2023
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As a Brit, I agree too. Europe is incapable of defending an allied nation within our own continent from invasion. We need to do better.
The military capability of European nations have to improve so we can guarantee our own security and be a more equal partner in NATO rather than a junior partner to the US.
You run into the weird issue, what if America can’t or won’t help.
Right now everyone depends on America to defend them but we may not always be able too.
The moment America cannot act as the unilateral head of NATO is the moment it collapses.
France, Germany, The U.K. and Turkey would then become the defacto " great" powers of Europe and the whole balance of power in the E.U. would be thrown off.
Not likely to happen for the time being, but if Trump somehow manages to get elected again the Europeans would be wise to consider their alternative options.
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I agree. But there's so much to do for a EU defense... GB is aligned with the US. Germany and a few other countries are entirely trusting the US. Hungary would probably side with Russia at this point.
I wish the war kick-started eu defense better.
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As an American, I've mixed feelings.
On the one hand, I think I think Europe owning it's own defense would be a solid move to ensure it's own sovereignty and independence as a modern nation.....thing.
On the other hand, I fear this could lead to US - EU military rivalry. While not necessarily the strongest bond in the world, I do value the relatively positive relationship the US and EU have. I hope that bond is preserved and hope we can grow even closer over time.
nation…..thing
we prefer the term "sui generis geopolitical entity" ;)
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Yeah, if we stopped being the world's police we might have tax money for something else.
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As an American, I think my government has become WAY too inconsistent and unreliable. We might elect Trump again, ffs. America can’t be counted on to meet its NATO obligations anymore. Too many fascists are in positions of power and sympathize with Putin.
As a human being i think you have become incosistent and unreliable too. Lean history, see what's happening around you, think with your own brain.
That implies you considered me consistent and reliable in the past. I’m flattered.
It benefits everyone to have distributed defense. Work together, but be able to have a basic level of your own defense is vital.
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Europe shouldn't let it's home-grown defence industries languish in the name of strategic cohesion. Europe has no domestic competition to the F-35, no cohesive military procurement strategy that rewards European businesses, and no mechanism to avoid the shitshow of being entirely dependent on US defence contractors for maintenance of key defence infrastructure.
It also doesn't have access to nearly as many raw materials as the United States does.
I wish we'd all just calm down with the military spending, but I also understand when dealing with the USA it's probably safer to not rely on then(us) to keep their(our) word
Trump's presidency certainly showed that the US is one election away from balking. I'm pretty sure that's Putin's plan in Ukraine now.
I hope they have no competition to the F-35 because everyone’s been saying it’s a piece of shit for the last fifteen years.
I think the situation is more nuanced than that.
Of course, the F-35 program was an incredibly expensive mess (litterally the most expensive weapon program of all time), because of conflicting specs, data leaks, political infighting, cost overruns which are the stuff of legend, etc... At some moments, there were certainly reasons to think the whole program would collapse on itself like wet tissue paper.
But there are operational F35 now. 900+ as of 2023, which is 4 time more than the rest of Gen 5 fighters combined. And performance-wise, it is good, especially on the stealth & avionics parts. On the other side, the J-20 is largely unproven (probably a decent design, but not as good), and the Su-57 is a bunch of glorified prototypes.
Now sure, cost is high, maintenance is time-consuming, availability somewhat below target, but it's not particularly surprising for high-performance equipment. It may fall short of the ambition of the program on the cost part, but by itself it's a dangerous and fully operational fighter.
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Anyone that says that has no idea what they're talking about lol, the F-35 is completely unmatched in terms of multirole aircraft (along with the F-22 for a more fighter-focused role) and likely will only be surpassed with gen 6 aircraft.
The SU-57 and practically any "modern" Russian aircraft are complete jokes that will fall apart with 2 seconds of airtime, and the J-20 and a majority of Chinese aircraft are cheap imitations of western (mainly American) technology which although much more capable than Russian aircraft, still fall behind a lot due to the corruption/authoritarianism in the Chinese military & government absolutely crumpling any hope of having actually competitive engineering & building.
European aircraft aren't even worth considering as competition either (although are far superior to the previous 2 nations' mentioned, in most cases). Eurofighters are just another one of the projects European nations had that was plagued by issues from the fact that it was multiple parties with differing requirements/interests/goals trying to develop something. Gripens are less effective budget alternatives to American gen 4 fighters. Etc. Etc.
The combined capabilities in technology, resources/wealth, and pool of experienced/intelligent engineers that the US has at its disposal makes it extremely hard to even dream of touching their capabilities when it comes to aircraft. Even with ground vehicles, the only real competition is Germany... but German armed forces are kind of in a state of disrepair right now, they've really neglected their military. It's really only the defense companies like Rheinmetall and KNDS which can be pointed to as successful currently.
Europe has a long way to go to compete with American military aircraft. Right now the US just has so much more experience and knowledge when it comes to fighter jets & more modern technologies present in said jets. It'd require a lot more investment in aerospace engineering and technology as a whole really, not just when it comes to aerospace. And Europe is currently even more desperate for tech workers than the US atm afaik.
SAAB can't go toe to toe with American jets, that's true, and not what they were designed for. They'll shoot an SU out of the sky before the SU knows they exist. They're also still the only people to ever get a lock on a SR-71. As an American, I think they make some impressive jets. I even like their cars, but that's a can of heartbreak.
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lmao there's always a rogue president who says this while the rest of the EU falls in line with Washington
He's not advocating Europe separate from the US, but become a military superpower in its own right by having as large a military as the US. I am sure both Petr Pavel and Joe Biden agree on enforcing the "rules-based international order".
To think that the EU suddenly wants to ditch the US because they see them as a burden/dangerous is wishful thinking. In fact the only countries willing to do that might be France, because the local bourgeois don't like to be limited by the US on pursuing their imperialist interests in Africa.
Idk anything about this fella, but that snow white hair and beard look fuckin fresh
Lots of euro leaders have said the same over the years. The question as always is, what will you do about it?
Well PESCO did get created. Denmark dropped their opt out from CSDP. Stuff like this moves slowly, specially upon there not being single hegemonic leader saying "We do this" and everyone else answering "Yes boss". EU is herding catch and it makes everything move slowly.
Yet on the other hand, he says EU should hurry up at expanding and integrate Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and others. He's pro-NATO, he just thinks the EU should have more of the muscle. Either that or he's just entirely full of shit.
Yet on the other hand, he says EU should hurry up at expanding and integrate Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and others.
I don't understand how expanding EU is contradicting the headline. Care to explain?
EU/NATO are vassals and part of the same empire as America/UK. Basically, they're all the same side. My point is that if you're against NATO imperialism, this guy isn't who you're looking for. He just wants to be a bit less junior of a partner in the empire.
Jokes on him and the EU though, they're even more junior than ever before and getting further vassalized and de-industrialized and dependent on the USA.
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