this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2025
484 points (92.8% liked)

The Democratic People's™ Republic of Tankiejerk

723 readers
161 users here now

Dunking on Tankies from a leftist, anti-capitalist perspective.

Rules:

  1. Be civil and no bigotry of any kind.
  2. No tankies or right-wingers. Liberals are allowed so long as they are aware of this
  3. No genocide denial

We allow posts about tankie behavior even off fedi, shitposts, and rational, leftist discussion. For a more general community [email protected] is recommended.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 68 points 1 week ago (2 children)

The workers do not need to control the means of production when Pooh Bear Xi knows what's best for them before they do.

[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 week ago

Socialism is when capitalism

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Ah, you mean the elite, wealthy, oligarch class, Xi Jinping.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 week ago

Whoa buddy you a fed? Got any sources? My xi would never.

[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The DPRK is, I'd argue, more or less an absolute monarchy that just uses different words to describe itself than traditional for that kind of system.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The People's™ Absolute monarchy

Seriously it's insane how people can unironically lie to themselves. Thy literally said "socialism is not for the workers" lmfaoo

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago (3 children)

If socialism were bad, law firms wouldn't be structured as partnerships.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Law firms are so so so not socialist.

Partnerships only involve a few select attorneys at a firm, associate attorneys, paralegals, legal assistants, and every other role is not part of the partnership, and has no stake other than their vested interest in getting their paycheck (the same as any employee).

"Big Law" firms have thousands of employees excluded from any partnerships including billable (associates, paralegals) and non billable (legal assistants, HR, IT) staff, the partnership is more of a private ownership club where people are accepted mostly on vibes and sometimes, rarely, on merit.

The partnership structure is pretty antithetical to socialism, since it's structured in a way to exclude people deemed not worthy of receiving profits (But still somehow needed to make the profits??).

TL;DR: a small group of owner operators within a larger company is decidedly capitalist.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

karl marx only invented socialism for rich people, read theory shitlib

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 week ago

Come on now! China is totally communist! After all when Marx envisioned his ideal state is was an authoritarian police state with billionaires, massive wealth disparities, stock markets and an investor class, right?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Genuinely curious about the standard by which you evaluate whether the means of production are collectively owned. For example, one person might say that it looks like a government, representing all workers on a national scale and making decisions based on votes or elected representatives, owning all the means of production. Another person might say it looks like each industry being controlled by a union representing the workers in said industry. A third could say that it means anytime a person operates a machine, they own it and can decide what to do with it, until they stop using it.

Is there any concievable physical reality in which it would be impossible to reasonably argue that the workers do not collectively control the means of production, because of a disagreement on which means of production should be owned by which workers and in what form? It seems like a very vague definition when you start looking beyond slogans into what it actually looks like.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (7 children)

For example, one person might say that it looks like a government, representing all workers on a national scale and making decisions based on votes or elected representatives, owning all the means of production.

That might be relevant if the USSR was actually democratic.

Is there any physical reality in which it would be impossible to reasonably argue that the workers do not collectively control the means of production, because of a disagreement on which means of production should be owned by which workers? It seems like a very vague definition when you start looking beyond slogans into what it actually looks like.

"Does socialism really MEAN anything? Thonking "

Really showing the libs, I see.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I'm a little out of the loop, why is a social democratic welfare state not socialism?

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Social democratic welfare states re-distribute some of the surplus value extracted from the labor of workers back to them, but the fundamental functioning of the economy remains decision-making in firms owned and run by capitalist investors rather than workers.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

That's fair, but if the workers regulate the companies, control supply via subsidies and taxation, and cap the wealth of the investors then doesn't it have the exact same effect as if a government office made all the business decisions while also allotting the freedom of the workers to create or retire businesses?

Pretty big but, though, I admit it would be asking a lot to accomplish that from the perspective of the world we live in.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

That’s fair, but if the workers regulate the companies, control supply via subsidies and taxation, and cap the wealth of the investors then doesn’t it have the exact same effect as if a government office made all the business decisions while also allotting the freedom of the workers to create or retire businesses?

Not really - I feel like I should address this in parts, though it's all one statement and I feel like it needed to be denied as a whole statement first.

That’s fair, but if the workers regulate the companies, control supply via subsidies and taxation, and cap the wealth of the investors

This is the ideal functioning of a social democratic welfare state. We... do not really have a fully ideally functioning social democratic welfare state right now (speaking even outside of the US, because we're pretty fucked here), but this is a fundamentally good, or at least better, goal to aim for than our current situation.

then doesn’t it have the exact same effect as if a government office made all the business decisions

No, it does not. What you've proposed, as a social democratic welfare state, results in a government which restricts and encourages economic decisions which it believes will be in the best interest of the workers. The final decision-making power resides with independent firms mostly run by capitalist investors, even if their decisions are restricted by regulations, and invariably, the decision made within those restrictions will be the one which most benefits (or which the investors perceive as most-benefitting) the capitalist investors, not the workers, and not the firm.

What you describe is probably most comparable to French dirigisme

while also allotting the freedom of the workers to create or retire businesses?

This is a common misconception about socialism, or at least many forms of socialism. Under socialism, a worker running a business is not necessarily restricted - what is restricted is who, beyond the worker, can create or retire a business.

Under the loosest definition of socialism, or, if one prefers the more stringent definition of socialism as beyond simply modernist anti-capitalism, under generally anti-capitalist ideals, there is nothing preventing a worker from starting a business and selling their labor.

Where things get fuzzy is ownership of capital. The strictest socialists would say that all ownership of capital is anti-socialist - down to tools being communally shared. This is an extreme position, however. Most socialists accept that some amount of workers owning the tools they themselves use (or, for some who are insistent about ownership being verboten, workers having 'exclusive rights to dictate the usage of their tools as long as the tools are in use by them') is acceptable - what is important is that capital is not a tool to leverage control over others, but a tool to enable one's own labor.

At its absolute loosest, a generalized anti-capitalism, a worker would be able to run a business, hire workers, buy and sell capital on behalf of the firm, etc, in a mostly recognizable way, even if his work was done on what we might regard as an executive level. The difference would be that the capital would belong to the firm he ran - the worker could not simply cash out and leave the other workers high and dry because it's 'his' business. Nor would there be outside non-worker investors.

This is considered by many socialists to be insufficient to qualify as socialism, and many would insist further that a firm must include workers as a fundamental and major part of the decision-making process to be socialists - but even then, again, nothing in most of these conceptions stops a worker from starting a business and hiring workers. It's simply that once other workers are involved, they must be involved in decision-making, in some form - whether by electing who runs the firm, or by worker-investor schemes, or by votes on major decisions.

There are a lot of conceptions of socialism out there, and a lot of different proposals for what we should be working for. About the only point of agreement is that capitalism is not the way forward - that investor-driven market economies have results which follow the iron law of institutions - decisions benefit the decision-makers, not the firms, and certainly not the workers.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

No it's not the same, it's a totally different system as long as the labor doesn't own the business they work for. Ten thousand different mechanisms to circumvent the ownership by private capital is still ownership by private capital and as America has demonstrated again and again, no battle is won by a vague circumventing of the major problem of exploitation, because all those mechanisms are quickly and easily removed by private capital the second they buy enough power to do so. Our entire economy is monopolizing at an alarming rate, this was illegal just a few decades ago, it's now legal to hand politicians millions of dollars to do what they are told, this was illegal before Citizens United decision, also legal to bribe then to do your bidding openly as long as you only give them the money after they accomplish your task, and now unions are difficult to start and maintain this was a legally protected activity a few decades ago, all the circumventing is temporary and inefficient.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Because a welfare state is irrelevant to worker controlled/owned means of production and worker ownership is the defining characteristic of socialism.

A welfare state is just a welfare state.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

What does it even mean to own the means of production? How are decisions made? Big decisions can go to a vote, but what about small ones? I don't see how any organization can function without some kind of hierarchy. But the way you describe socialism implies that hierarchy can't coexist with socialism.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Maybe the pirate ship system would work well.

Every man got the same share except the captain (2x) and quartermaster (1.5x) and the doctor (1.5x) any of that position can be replaced anytime by a vote

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago

Aye, this be a fittin' trajectory for ye politics

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (16 children)

The socialist democratically owned company would still elect a CEO or something like it to make those kinds of decisions, and if they don't make good decisions they can be recalled by the employees to be replaced with someone else. The way I look at it it would be like how companies are currently but with all employees owning shares of the company rather then outside investors or the owner of the company. Atleast that's how I interpret it but there's probably a million different ways you could set it up while still having it be much more democratic then the modern structure.

load more comments (16 replies)
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago

I think that in order to have a socialist nation you first need a nation.

And you're not going to get that without being a power hungry lunatic.

We're still a serfdom ruled by kings, and no amount of window dressing has changed that. At best we decide what colour hat the king will wear every four years.

load more comments
view more: next ›