this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2024
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 82 points 2 months ago (4 children)
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[–] [email protected] 79 points 2 months ago (4 children)

As someone who consumes a lot of ancient history, it can also make you like “Ah yes, another city rises, another is displaced by climate disaster, and another falls due to land mismanagement. ‘Tis the way of things.”

[–] [email protected] 52 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Nonsense, I look on Ozymandias, king of kings' works daily and despair!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I was literally thinking about this poem moments ago.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

It's one of the greats.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

It's true. I wonder how many ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Chinese, Egyptians, Persians, Romans thought:

"Surely, this empire will last forever! Look upon our works, ye mighty, and despair!" (EDIT: LOL It appears we're all of one mind remembering this poem. We must be doing something right. XD)

Especially in modern times it's insanely difficult to imagine the geopolitics shifting drastically, but it's happened before, it's happening now. The difference being that the rest of the globe is now much more invested in your shenanigans with your neighbors, but it's still happening.

What does one do amidst a regime change?

I'm glad I've never had to seriously consider it until now. ...but it unnerves me that I probably need to start.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

You forgot an important difference between ancient history and now. Now, when the empire falls it has the power to take the biosphere with it.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

how does one consume ancient history? do you eat the source documents?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That’s unrealistic— some of them are etched into stone

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

You need some papurus dust to sprinkle on those, like a lick-a-stick.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Civilizations of a heirarchal centralized type definitely feel like temporary abberations, after reading Graeber and Wengrow

[–] [email protected] 76 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Boy I sure do love living through historical events that will likely end up in textbooks in the future

[–] [email protected] 46 points 2 months ago

My history teacher said that the greatest curse you can give someone is telling them "May you live in interesting times" and boy do I feel that now.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Bold of you to presume that people will be allowed to read about these times, in the future:-).

[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's why I said they'll likely be in textbooks, no guarantee lol

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

Fair enough!:-)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

May you live in interesting times...

Edit: Ah, was done below, great minds...

[–] [email protected] 67 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I've been working through a few biographies of the top brass of Nazidom, and even with the rather perfunctory understanding I've gained from these books of Hitler's seizure of power and all that followed in Nazi Germany, my ears are pricking up in horror every day as I listen to the latest news from around the world. And I'm not even going so far as the Holocaust. If the Holocaust and WWII never happened, the Nazi regime would still have been an unmitigated nightmare.

The language certain politicians are using is plucked directly from the mouths of Goebbels' and Himmler's rotting corpses. How can they not see what lies ahead if they continue with this shit? We know how this story ends. We have examples of it from recent memory, we don't even need to cast our minds back to the 1930s 🤷‍

[–] [email protected] 34 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The language certain politicians are using is plucked directly from the mouths of Goebbels’ and Himmler’s rotting corpses. How can they not see what lies ahead if they continue with this shit?

What's even more infuriating is that when you try to point this out to others, they act like you're insane/exaggerating.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

...because most don't study the rise and causes of what happened. They only study the result. "Never again" refers to the holocaust, but nobody puts that sign on the the road that led to it.

  • Wealth disparity and inflation
  • Fear of "others" taking what little people have
  • Traumatized populations from decades of war

With populations scared and desperate, they'll latch on to any demigogue that appears.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 2 months ago (2 children)

But it's not literally the Holocaust again, so it's fine /s

I'm trans, god help me...

[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago

poland better not be the epicentre again - signed a Polish trans person

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Not literally the Holocaust again yet.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I am not familiar with this, would you share what country you are talking about?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Germany for example. The AfD is gaining more and more support by using phrases like "This development that is happening right now, creation of mixed populations to destroy the national identity and thus give our autonomy to the EU - that is simply not bearable!", "Such humans we should of course dispose of", "When a [n-word] in my neighborhood coughs at me, I have to know if he is sick or is he not sick." or "The reason why we are being flooded with culturally foreign people like Arabs, Sinti and Roma is the systematic destruction of civil society." https://www.volksverpetzer.de/analyse/10-rechtsextreme-zitate-der-afd/

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Some of them see it, and approve.

Others are old and mentally ill, and care only for what power they can gain in their remaining few years, regardless of what that will bring later.

Others are merely useful, and go along with whoever is currently in power.

Others are afraid, so they do not oppose the changes, for fear of losing what they have, and desperately cling to hope that something else will stop the worst from happening.

Others...

and on and on it goes, just as it did before, just as it ever was, and quite frankly, now I see that so will it ever be.

[–] [email protected] 46 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It does feel a bit 1930s at the moment doesn't it

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Well you know what "they" say: those who study their history - FUCK! - still end up repeating it, when nobody else around does the same.:-(

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do learn from history are doomed to look on helplessly as everybody else repeats it.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (3 children)

And those who try to prevent the teaching of history intend to repeat it

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I really have begun to believe that politicians should employ historians to give advice on certain political events by drawing comparisons to previous situations.

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 months ago (2 children)

That only really works in a benevolent dictatorship. In a democracy, the masses can vote for reality-rejection candidates.

It's a pity democracy seems to be better than all the alternatives in practice, cause in principle there should be ways to improve things more. Inevitably though all other forms turn into draconian crap. Well, democracy does sometimes too, but less often.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 months ago (7 children)

What's odd about today's "democracy" is how increasingly little government itself matters, next to corporations that are stronger than nations.

[–] Barbarian 13 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Cyberpunk was supposed to be fiction, not a blueprint :(

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Just wait for the cyberpunk crossover with The Handmaid's Tale. This is the worst timeline.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Government could choose to reign these corporations in, but the money the give officials makes them choose not too

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

"It's okay, I'll enjoy my retirement long before corporations start buying literal states, springing up company towns, employing workers younger than my current children, and buying and selling people via contracts, whilst waging open war with drones and wageslave conscripts." --Most Politicians as they watch their green line go up, probably

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Right, so whether they "can't" or simply "won't", either way they don't, and the problem just grows and grows with no bounds.

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[–] Grandwolf319 16 points 2 months ago (3 children)

What surprises me is that they (people in the past) didn’t have past examples about similar things happening with very bad consequences, we do.

You would think the knowledge would make a difference…

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago (2 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian

Systematic historical thought emerged in ancient Greece, a development that became an important influence on the writing of history elsewhere around the Mediterranean region. The earliest known critical historical works were The Histories, composed by Herodotus of Halicarnassus (484 – c. 425 BCE) who later became known as the "father of history" (Cicero).

Now how many people had access to this knowledge is another matter, but studying history and learning from it was an important aspect in the education and training of leaders to be since more than a thousand years at the very least.

If we look at Moses and the Pharaoh as well as ancient Greek democracies, we can conclude that the principles of politics have not changed all that much in the past 3000-4000 years of human history. The knowledge was always there and the same mistakes are always repeated, with some very incremental progresses and regressions in between.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Herodatus wrote narratives more than he wrote histories.

The definitive 'beginning of history' is "The History of the Peloponesian War" by Thucydides, highly recommend, well written and accessible even now and spells out the politics very clearly and explicitly.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If we look at Moses

Ah, that one was warped somewhere between Atrahasis and Gilgamesch epos and then again to bible. Might not be historically accurate (it's unlikely that he existed).

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago

They so often did though, how many massive fires broke out in London before the great fire finally convinced them to stop building overlapping thatched rooves.

Even during The Plague of Justinian scholars wrote about what was essentially ancient social distancing practices, 2000 years ago later we still can't do it properly.

How many times did they have to put up with rat plagues and stinking open cess pits, followed by a big town clean up, and then nothing change in infrastructure or waste management practices, only to do the whole clean up again ....until the Great Stink got to close enough to the windows of parliament that those in power decided maybe they should address the root problem instead of applying bandaids every few years.

(I don't have a history degree so I'm pulling these details out of the memory depths of my dusty documentary viewings, and I'm probably wrong.)

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago

Same. I haven’t used my history degree at all. It has just enabled the “oh, fuck” overdrive in my brain over the last several years. I hate it.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago (9 children)

If you think it hasn't happend before, check again, nothing in history is new

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

History majors rise up

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

cries in enviro. sci

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