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Gender and Orientation in Vulcan Society (startrek.website)

submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I've often pondered about how Vulcans view gender and sexuality.

I think pre-Surak/logic, they may have demonstrated homophobia and transphobia, but modern Vulcan Society would probably be chill with it under the reasoning that discrimination would reduce a person's efficacy as a functional member of Vulcan Society. For instance, given a choice between allowing a person to contribute verses driving them to the brink of suicide, Vulcans would probably tend to lean towards the first option.

There could very well still be stigma (Vulcans are far from a perfect society; some may have views that it is illogical to have a romantic relationship without a child), but it's dampened by the logic from the previous paragraph.

There's also the Pon Farr to keep in mind. Not only would it be hard to fight a person in the Ponn Farr, but also you'd literally be killing them by trying to prevent expression of their orientation.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yeah, I agree that Vulcans would probably be naturally accepting of varied gender identification and presentation, and of varied sexual orientations. Probably similar to how the majority of the neurodiverse (especially autistic) communities among humans are accepting of gender and sexuality variations.

It strikes me as highly illogical to insist that anyone else has a better sense of what a person's sexual orientation or gender identity is than the individual themselves. If they say "I identify with X pronouns" then obviously it is illogical to use Y pronouns when referring to that person. If they say, "I'm attracted to people like this" then it's illogical to insist that they should instead be attracted to a different subset of people. If they express a preference for Z gender presentation, it's illogical to insist they should prefer otherwise.

Gendered expectations are illogical relics of ancient human social structure anyway, so Vulcan society probably wouldn't have as many of those to begin with, if any at all. Even our emotionally encumbered human cultures in the 21st century are beginning to wonder at how pointlessly gendered things have been for us.

some may have views that it is illogical to have a romantic relationship without a child

I don't see why it would be logical to posit that the potential for creating offspring is a necessary component of relationships. There are all manner of motivations for intimate bonding that have nothing to do with whether biological reproduction occurs. Also, adoption exists.

Arguably, the very concept of romance being a core component of relationships would be viewed by Vulcans as an illogical and unnecessary condition. I imagine the vast majority of Vulcan society would be aromantic by default.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

My opinion, since modern Vulcans suppress their emotions, the only logical reason to have a mate is procreation. So the vast majority of society is "straight" as a result of that logic.

At the same time, I would argue that it is an illogical activity to exclude someone of value to society based on who they have chosen to mate with. Logically, unless their choice of mate somehow affects their job/employment/task (whatever you want to call it), I don't see a logical reason why their choice in a mate would matter to anyone else.

The only logical argument I can find in all of this, is that choosing a mate based on feeling/preference, instead of logic, might demonstrate that an individual is more emotional and therefore less logical. And I think we all know how Vulcans feel about things that are not logical and/or things that act upon their feelings....

Personally, I don't see that having a preference in a mate, even one that steps outside the heteronormative, is a flaw in their logic. If you enjoy your time with your mate, and that makes you a better, more productive individual, then I fail to see a problem.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The only logical argument I can find in all of this, is that choosing a mate based on feeling/preference, instead of logic, might demonstrate that an individual is more emotional and therefore less logical. And I think we all know how Vulcans feel about things that are not logical and/or things that act upon their feelings....

Personally, I don't see that having a preference in a mate, even one that steps outside the heteronormative, is a flaw in their logic. If you enjoy your time with your mate, and that makes you a better, more productive individual, then I fail to see a problem.

I don't see any evidence that Vulcans don't completely agree with your own personal stance here.

Vulcans clearly do act upon personal values, desires, preferences, etc, that we as humans would view as emotional responses. "I want [a cookie/you to live long and prosper/to have galactic peace/to solve this math equation/etc]" is, for a human, a statement inherently rooted in an emotional assessment. The Vulcans themselves, however, clearly do not view these things as emotional expression.

We see partnerships which don't produce children, and despite Vulcans having no filter whatsoever when it comes to criticizing others for being "illogical", nobody seems to have anything to say to Sarek for apparently having no children with his last wife Perrin. When Tuvok is separated from his wife, he acknowledges on multiple occasions that he misses her because he wants to be able to spend time with her; he certainly doesn't bemoan the missed opportunity to fulfill a societal obligation to pop out more babies.

We don't have explicit counterfactuals here, but we all know that ultimately comes down to Doylist reasons. There's no reason we should assume that Vulcan society shares Rick Berman's personal sense of morality in this area.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Fair enough.

There are certainly aspects of desire that can be viewed as non-emotional. Not even just in sexual desire, but in general. Like, "I want a cookie" doesn't have to be an emotionally driven sentiment. Having want/desire does not necessarily mean an emotional drive for that thing.

Also, there are many ways to miss someone. If I were separated from my partner for a long period of time, her presence would be missed. Beyond the obvious physical intimacy, having someone around to talk with that I trust and value the opinion of; and someone I can share humerus stories with, or memes/quips that I heard or made. Or simply the knowledge of having them near in case I need assistance in any capacity. It's a comfort.

There's more to it than just intimacy, and emotion; though, being an inherently emotional human, I recognise those aspects in myself as well.

I admire the Vulcans. I think they're on to something.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Another thing I didn’t initially think about is the Federation’s potentially great capability for transitioning people, considering how relatively simple it was for Bashir to transition Quark to being female then back to male.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

~~Could they even biologically survive homosexual Pon Farr?~~ No wait, they could because they have shown them to satisfy themselves in a holodeck on Voyager. Under the circumstances, it should have been logical for Tuvok and Vorik to have made sweet, sweet love.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

By the time the Vulcans had that technology, though, they had already been Federation members for over a century and thus would probably be used to respecting the rights of LGBTQ+ Vulcans.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

Why do they have hair on the top of their ear?

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Ice cold logic.

Reproductive organs are for reproducing and reproducing only. If you have a penis you’re a male of the species, if you have a vagina you’re a female of the species. Anything else is a genetic abnormality that should be fixed.

There’s no room for emotion, no room to feel like you’re in the wrong body or to identify as something other than what you physically present. This social weight is compounded in the Kelvin timeline where there are so few Vulcans left they must mate full-time just to prevent extinction.

I think it would be an interesting story to have a half Vulcan, half Human struggle with dysphoric emotions boiling beneath their taught logical exterior, or a full Vulcan that doesn’t understand why they have no desire (or actual regret) to Pon Farr with their mate.

But don’t take existing characters and rough them up because you’re bored with them. Don’t take Spock and turn him into a depressed, bearded neurodivergent with 20 siblings. Make new characters that I can care just as much about. Even in the sterile Vulcan society there is opportunity to tell very human, very emotion-driven stories about one’s own identity.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Despite the storytelling potential, I’d think that the Pon Farr would put an automatic limit on any homophobia the Vulcans have, as once again, denying someone would have lethal consequences.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

I don’t recall mentioning homophobia.

I also disagree that the inherent disregard of “illogical” alternative relationships or identities would be rooted in hate. “Hate is illogical.”

Though the idea that there is a Vulcan somewhere who is harboring hateful emotions towards Vulcans who identify that way would be yet another potential story to tell. Something akin to the Enterprise episode Fusion.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Reproductive organs are for reproducing and reproducing only. If you have a penis you’re a male of the species, if you have a vagina you’re a female of the species. Anything else is a genetic abnormality that should be fixed.

There’s no room for emotion, no room to feel like you’re in the wrong body or to identify as something other than what you physically present.

I see little grounds for this assessment.

Vulcans not only recognize the immense complexity of the mind, but they also recognize people have a soul (their Katra). Why would it be "ice cold logic" to decide that the physical body, not the mind or soul, determines what a person truly is? Especially in a technological context where elaborate reconstructive surgeries are trivially easy.

Vulcans have preferences, desires, and needs that we would describe as emotionally driven. Vulcans clearly do not consider these to be emotional in nature. Despite practicing arranged marriages, the actions of those Vulcans whose lives we see into (Spock, T'Pring, Sarek, T'Pol, etc) clearly show that they are not strictly beholden to such arrangements, and value forming romantic partnerships with people they are attracted to. Likewise, the need to occupy the correct type of body, and by referred to by the correct name and correct terms, would surely be understood and accepted without difficulty.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Unless you’re referencing a retcon that’s been made to lore recently, we are definitely watching completely different shows.

In Star Trek, it’s been long established that Vulcan society is built around the complete suppression of emotion. The Vulcans do have emotions, they just nearly always choose to ignore them. Creating a society of people that think and act strictly on logic.

Don’t mistaken disregard for acceptance or understanding. If a Vulcan is gay or trans… the rest of the Vulcan people have nothing to say about it and just go about their lives (Which is sadly a far better response than many present-day Humans). And that’s precisely the point of my comment.

That (non)response leaves those Vulcans without acknowledgement of what they are and trapped in a society constructed around heteronormalcy. They may find one another and form groups, but still be expected to take heterosexual mates and be part of a “logical” family structure.

Katra is how Vulcans rationalize the different opinions/desires/preferences each Vulcan has and just lumps them all into what must be one’s “soul”, rather than acknowledge the emotional identity such things emerge from. The training computer on Vulcan only asks Spock how he feels because it knows he’s half-human. No other reason, and just that one single aside in a long and elaborate test.

Also, don’t mistaken my stating these observations as some kind of approval of such behavior. Vulcans exist in Star Trek to be a reflection of one aspect of humanity, amplified for the purpose of aspirational storytelling. But I do like seeing stories that take established paradigms and turn them on their head or criticize their obvious flaws.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That (non)response leaves those Vulcans without acknowledgement of what they are and trapped in a society constructed around heteronormalcy. They may find one another and form groups, but still be expected to take heterosexual mates and be part of a “logical” family structure.

Can you cite any evidence of this? 90s Trek presents all societies as relatively heteronormative because it was the 90s and Rick Berman was a homophobe, but I see little evidence that Vulcans society should be considered any more or less heteronormative than Humans, Klingons, etc. Nor can I recall evidence that the Vulcans would consider one man and one woman to be the singular "logical" family structure.

Katra is how Vulcans rationalize the different opinions/desires/preferences each Vulcan has and just lumps them all into what must be one’s “soul”, rather than acknowledge the emotional identity such things emerge from.

Likewise, I'd like to know where this description of Katras as a catchall cause for personal preference is stated.