KBIN is not implementing promised improvements in moderation, federation, and fighting spam. I have given up on this platform, and I can't recommend anyone to put any effort into it any longer.
Did you read the pinned welcome thread?
It is because we are egalitarian and pro-human that we are pro-men as well as pro-women. And because men are human and have human rights, men also deserve to have their rights advocated for. This community welcomes everyone who comes without hate or bigotry, to discuss men's issues.
I just did. And honestly it doesn't leave me hopeful for this space. Boosted comments in that thread overly generalise feminism and even place blame on feminism as a whole for issues that men face. Comments saying that feminism is an egalitarian movement are reduced.
Men's advocacy is important. There are perspectives on issues that men offer that other genders cannot, the same way there are perspectives that women can offer but other genders cannot. And not all feminist advocacy is created equal, some of it is not great. But the generalised blame game is precisely the sort of tribalistic thinking that so often leads men's advocacy spaces into misogyny, where women's advocacy is treated as an infringement on men.
honestly it doesn't leave me hopeful for this space
Then you need to adjust your perspective. Feminism is an ideology that has from the start been steeped in misandry. That is what we oppose. Sure, there are individual feminists who may promote actual equality. But show us the actual feminist thought leaders, academics, lobbyists and politicians who do. The majority in practice support sexist ideas and policies.
Comments saying that feminism is an egalitarian movement are reduced.
Because unfortunately, in practice feminism too often is not egalitarian, but paints men collectively as oppressors. We oppose that unhealthy, sexist view of men.
the sort of tribalistic thinking that so often leads men's advocacy spaces into misogyny, where women's advocacy is treated as an infringement on men.
We are pro women's advocacy. We simply oppose misandry as well as misogyny.
Then you need to adjust your perspective.
No, I don't actually need to do anything. I'm stating my opinion, like everybody else is. I just think that you are wrong. And I think that that perspective will lead this space nurturing the sort of tribalistic blame-game that has been seen in previous overtly misogynistic MensRights spaces.
Feminism is an ideology that has from the start been steeped in misandry. That is what we oppose. Sure, there are individual feminists who may promote actual equality. But show us the actual feminist thought leaders, academics, lobbyists and politicians who do. The majority in practice support sexist ideas and policies.
This is an over-generalisation of feminism.
Like, radical feminists often outright loathe liberal feminists. Intersectional feminists have long been critical of the strands of feminism focused on traditional, white, femininity. Queer feminists tear apart TERFs (although while TERFs claim the label of feminist, they tend to enforce rigid gender distinctions so many people, including myself, don't think they are feminists at all). The label "feminism" refers to a massive, multifaceted, many-decades-long field of study and discourse, full of differing perspectives and internal disagreements and discussions.
It's like what the right-wing does with terms like "woke" or "cancel culture". It lumps together a diverse set of beliefs, which are often in opposition to one another, under a single label and talks about them as if they're one single unified ideology or movement. It then picks the worst examples from that set of beliefs and uses it to tar everything under the label. Any counter examples can be dismissed as "individuals" who are not representative of the set as a whole.
Because unfortunately, in practice feminism too often is not egalitarian, but paints men collectively as oppressors. We oppose that unhealthy, sexist view of men.
Feminists regularly state that men as individuals are not well served by a patriarchal system.
Heck that's a big part of what feminist conversation around "toxic masculinity" is about: how a patriarchal system hurts everybody, including the individual men within it.
A lot of this is just the misunderstanding of "men" as a social group, and "men" as individuals. Critique of the social systems affecting a group cannot be simply applied to every individual within that group. That's not how critique of social systems is intended.
We are pro women's advocacy. We simply oppose misandry as well as misogyny.
In the welcome thread you favourited comments that consider feminism to have a "focus on female supremacy" and to be "genocidal". That same comment thread deliberately misinterprets feminist distinction between "group" and "individual" and considers that some sort of malicious deception.
To be very frank, you are not pro women's advocacy if that is the sort of generalisation that you encourage.
And just practically speaking, meaningful men's advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with feminists towards egalitarianism. So long as there is a focus on tearing down this falsely constructed boogeyman of "feminism", this will be little more than finger-pointing.
This is an over-generalisation of feminism.
Says you. But you didn't give any of the evidence asked for.
Feminists regularly state that men as individuals are not well served by a patriarchal system. [...] A lot of this is just the misunderstanding of "men" as a social group, and "men" as individuals. Critique of the social systems affecting a group cannot be simply applied to every individual within that group.
So men in general are bad, but some individuals are okay? Yeah, that's misandry. And that's why we cannot work with most feminist activists. They are bigots.
I've tried. I've honestly tried. When I was active on Reddit I tried to ally with a feminist or feminist-adjacent group that would not demonize men. I found a few individuals, but no community (/subreddit) that would actually embrace men as equals and oppose misandry.
And that's a reflection of what happens in politics. Feminist politicians, lobbyists, and activist groups often say they want equality, but their actions often show the opposite.
In the welcome thread you favourited comments that consider feminism to have a "focus on female supremacy"
It often does.
and to be "genocidal".
I don't agree with that. Just because I upvote a comment does not mean I agree with every phrase in it.
That same comment thread deliberately misinterprets feminist distinction between "group" and "individual"
How so? Doesn't feminism habitually demonize men as a group? And isn't demonizing people based on innate characteristics bigotry?
To be very frank, you are not pro women's advocacy if that is the sort of generalisation that you encourage.
Nonsense. Don't you understand the difference between a gender and an ideology? We are pro women, but oppose feminist ideology because of its misandry.
(Yes, there are schools of feminism that are not, but they are fringe.)
meaningful men's advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with feminists towards egalitarianism.
That sounds a bit like meaningful black advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with white supremacists towards egalitarianism.
There is no working with bigots.
(And yes, I'm aware there are many "passive" feminists who believe the propaganda that the movement is for equality. We welcome them to open their eyes and work with us.)
But if there are feminists who are pro men and pro equality, we would love to work with them. The problem is that in practice they are very hard to find.
Says you. But you didn't give any of the evidence asked for.
I responded your assertions with the same amount of evidence that you made them with. Which is none.
I'm giving my opinion. You don't have to take it. And I don't have to spend any more effort than I feel like in responding to you.
So men in general are bad, but some individuals are okay? Yeah, that's misandry. And that's why we cannot work with most feminist activists. They are bigots.
This is literally just individualising systemic criticism again. The exact thing my comment was saying it is a misunderstanding to do.
I'm being sincere when I say: You do not seem understand the words that feminists are saying.
I really do need you to realise that. If that is how you interpret feminist critique of social systems, that "men in general are bad", then you do not understand feminists arguments as they are intended. You are deadset against a strawman.
Your attempts to engage with feminism are almost certainly going to be coloured by that misunderstanding. Because when a feminist says ABC, and you are seemingly determined to hear XYZ instead, and because of that you begin throwing around accusations, those interactions are going to become combative.
I don't agree with that. Just because I upvote a comment does not mean I agree with every phrase in it.
Complete cop out. You are a moderator of this space. If you allow, and even show tacit support for such ridiculous tribalism, you cannot later be suprised when the community you foster embodies that.
I'm not a man, but I used to be pretty sympathetic to the MensRights crowd. I am still sympathetic to men's advocacy because I think men's issues are important, both to men as individuals and to a healthy society. But those previous communities were misogynistic because they were more concerned with blaming feminism and women than building something healthy.
That sounds a bit like meaningful black advocacy is only going to gain actual traction by working with white supremacists towards egalitarianism. There is no working with bigots.
Right back at you. Your attempts to separate "women's advocacy" from "feminism" just reads like you, as a man, want to determine the acceptable limits of women's advocacy.
I responded your assertions with the same amount of evidence that you made them with. Which is none.
You need evidence for feminism being misandrist?
I mean, I can give you that, as there is plenty to go around, starting from the 1848 Declaration of Sentiments painting men in general as tyrannical oppressors.
Do you need us to make a list?
This is literally just individualising systemic criticism again.
No. There is a difference between criticizing a system and criticizing a gender. I'm all for criticizing traditional gender norms, but I'm vehemently opposed to demonizing men.
Your attempts to separate "women's advocacy" from "feminism" just reads like you, as a man, want to determine the acceptable limits of women's advocacy.
Just like you reject the misogyny in some corners of the men's movement (as do I), I reject the misandry so prevalent in feminism.
And exactly because misandry is so prevalent in feminism (and reflected in its theory), I call those who wish to advocate for women from an egalitarian perspective to distance themselves from it.
The label "feminism" refers to a massive, multifaceted, many-decades-long field of study and discourse, full of differing perspectives and internal disagreements and discussions.
But they all agree to at the very least use wording to imply that men are to blame for everything.
And while it's true that different factions will have different perspectives, the one perspective that is never properly accounted for is the one of self-respecting men.
So while it's impossible to nail down a clear and complete position held by Feminism, it's misandrist impact on society is very clear. This is the natural consequence of constructing an ideology focusing on women's well being without real concern for men's wellbeing for decades.
I agree. I scrolled through the comments (even responded to some) and this community is already heading towards where the feminist communities are heading: blaming the "other side" for everything.
It's not productive in any way and only serves to widen the gap between both communities.
That's great. Hopefully the moderators will uphold that view.
Despair and the longing for understanding, can easily be exploited to guide people onto a path of anger and hate.
Good luck with the community.
I think in order to actually attain that egalatarianism from a male perspective it requires a strict pro male POV on our side in spaces like this because the default in a lot of mainstream conversations about gender related issues and problems start from the framework of feminist theory invoking ideas like "male privilege, oppression" which prioritize the oppression and issues affecting women first and foremost and I don't think a framework that excuses phrases like "KillAllMen" should get a free pass in spaces like this.
To be blunt, I don't care if incels, red pillers, feminists or right wingers wanna comment in this space so long as they abide by the rules of civility and attack ideas and act in good faith when our ideas go against theirs and challenge them.
Please don't let Lemmy turn into the unthinking, authoritarian, hyper-left, anti-male circlejerk that reddit became. Please go spend your time lecturing female-centric instances on proper conduct if you're really concerned about it......or just stay on reddit.
I’m 90% sure this is a feminist and r/menslib raid on this community, to try and control discussion early and make sure it can’t grow
I agree, seems like a concern trolling.
and so early, too. Surprising.
Usually they wait until a community has more than 3 digits of members before bothering.
Something must have spooked them.
Nah, we are much more visible here. We appear in /all, which is the default setting when clicking on the kbin logo.
Incel, mens-rights activist, red-pill, black-pill, MGTOW, etc.
Most of these groups are not even misogynistic, besides black-pill. This post is unnecessary.