this post was submitted on 17 May 2024

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Every American President (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 8 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Yes even Lincoln. He was brutal with the indigenous Americans just like all his contemporary genociders.

And even on the subject of slavery, he was basically forced into it. He also really hampered radical reconstruction which sought to actually change the power structure, take land from slaveholders and give it to the freedmen... Went way easy on former Confederates and let them slip into (subdued, but still significant) control. He wasn't as bad as his successor in that regard but he's no role model. Read "Black Reconstruction in America" by W.E.B. DuBois if you're interested.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

He was an abolitionist before his presidency

Just not something he could realistically do without the civil war

And yes it only happened because after the civil war 90% of the US was free states

[+] [email protected] -1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] Scubus 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

I mean the emancipation proclamation didn't ban slavery, it just banned it in rebelling states by freeing the slaves in those states. It was a year/years later that the ~~21(?)~~ 13th Amendment was signed that actually banned the practice.

Lincoln didn't want to free the slaves, he just didn't want the south using them as an army.

[+] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

[deleted]

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You both need to stop saying the 21st amendment. Hard to take the rest of your history lessons seriously when you’re saying Lincoln repealed prohibition. It was the 13th amendment.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

He was always ambivalent about abolition. Not a fan of slavery, sure. Maybe. But he made it clear over and over and over again that he would much rather keep the country together than free any slaves if he could.

He also MANY times said he wouldn't even know where freed slaves fit into American society, proposing they be shipped off to some island to colonize so he wouldn't have to deal with them.

It was only at the insistence of his generals that it was a military necessity or they'd lose the war that he freed some of the slaves.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

He might have somewhat wanted to, but it wasn't an explicit goal of his until it became strategic to the war effort.

Lincoln before he got elected: no, I'm not coming for your slaves

Lincoln after elected: no, I'm not coming for your slaves

Lincoln during the war: "If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them"

Lincoln the moment the British might aid them: "the war is now about slaves and their freedom so Britain won't feel good about helping"

Yes, Lincoln didn't like slavery and thought it was bad for the country, but much like the founding fathers he thought it was on its way out naturally. Without the southern states throwing The Great Tantrum Lincoln would have left the slave issue alone

[–] Scubus -5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

~~The civil war was started over the economics of slavery, not the cancellation of slavery. The south wanted slaves to count towards votes, but not count towards taxes owed. The north refused to allow that, and they decided that slaves didn't count towards either. And since without slaves the southern states had much lower populations, that dramatically diminished their voting power. That is why the civil war started.~~

~~Edit:I guess you guys missed the whole 3/5ths comprimise~~

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

This is revisionist, false, and stinks of the DotC.

The war was about the South keeping it's slaves, and it's ability to continue to subjugate an entire race of people. The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States states that "our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery." That only the "black race" is capable of being slaves. And in case you think this could be twisted somehow to support a rally against taxes, it goes on to say "There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union"

This is the opening volley off secession. It talks about commerce but not about taxes. It doesn't mention counting slaves as votes because they'd won that fight 60 years previously.

[–] Scubus 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

What's the doct? And yeah, the south feared the dissolution of slavery but from my understanding that was not what it was about for the north. Hence the 3/5ths compromise.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Daughters of the Confederacy

You realize that the 3/5ths compromise was added in 1787 at the constitutional convention right? That wasn't even remotely at issue during the civil war.

[–] Scubus 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

So it would seem. A bunch of the sources I was just googling seemed to confirm what I had learned in school, hence this debate. We were never taught about the dotc though, I take it they were a post war group of propagandists?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 months ago

Post war group of propagandists is a pretty good way to put it.

They were responsible for many of the Confederate statues, and a lot of revisionist rhetoric has its seeds with them.

To be clear, they were effective. And the public school system still bears their mark today, actually it's probably getting worse.

The South seceded out of fears of abolition. Full stop. Losing the election in a landslide to a Republican was only the last in a huge pile of straws. Ft Sumpter wasn't even where the fighting started. People had been literally killing each other over the issue of continued/expanded slavery for several years already.

Any source claiming that the South had more nuanced reasons for leaving is either knowingly lying, or has been taken in by a lie.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

You're kinda right, but wording it in the worst way possible

[–] naught 3 points 8 months ago

The 13th amendment outlaws slavery... mostly

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction

[–] Kecessa 26 points 8 months ago (2 children)

[–] [email protected] 36 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I'm afraid he supported at least East Timor genocide. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_invasion_of_East_Timor, paragraph on American involvement

[–] Kecessa 14 points 8 months ago

Dang it...

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Also still alive!

[–] AlligatorBlizzard 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Unfortunately this comment is about to age like milk. Last I saw was that he's really not doing well.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

I did a search before I posted... Just in case...

[–] [email protected] 17 points 8 months ago

Well the country is built on it.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago

misinformation, approximately 13.3% of presidents (13.0% of presidencies) are still alive

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago

Murica! Fuck yeah! 👍.