Did people actually change what they'd say based on whether or not they thought they'd get upvotes? I always just said what I wanted and used the karma to determine how popular of an opinion it was, so pretty much exactly how Lemmy works now. I don't think I ever looked at my overall account karma on Reddit.
Lemmy Shitpost
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Yes. It can also trick you into thinking a reactionary opinion is actually a popular one. For example in my country, ireland, there's been a few incidents were people of different nationalities have done unsavoury things caught on camera. This usually results of the comment section of the ireland sub to have a debate about whether there's too many immigrants in the country. Whichever side gets more upvotes is widely perceived to have "won" and bystanders will in turn adopt that position.
I don't think I've ever changed an opinion of mine to go along with the hive mind but the karma system has definitely discouraged me from commenting things because I would been downvoted into oblivion. It's not worth getting into arguments when you can clearly see people not siding with you.
How does this system solve that? Comments still have vote counts and reactionary comments still make it to the top of threads, there's just no visible count of total aggregated votes.
I'm fine being downvoted to oblivion by some anti-good astrotufing campaign, but it's getting honest, legitimate opinions slid down and out of discussion that feels risky
I'm definitely anti right wing, but that doesn't automatically make the left right about everything.
What is true about both sides is that some people just wanna look for a fight/argument and dehumanize their political 'other'. It's easy dopamine and righteous rage that drives engagement in every human.
Any good faith comment that points this out in an argument and has credible examples is always worth its salt.
I actually like finding out I'm wrong or my information is incomplete/outdated. I don't care for unfounded opinions in myself or others regardless of how they make me feel!
The biggest issue in some places was, even if your opinion is valid, if it didn’t fit the group speak, it would be downvoted regardless.
It wasn’t really a great indicator if your opinion was popular or not, it was more if it got that groups niche.
Yes, people definitely did. Maybe not a majority but a lot
how do people on this site not realize that the points next to your posts affect how your posts are sorted and are literally the exact same system as reddit? am i just so blind that i can actually see the numbers next to my posts or is everyone here just trying to be so anti-reddit they'll make up bullshit that isn't reality?
They are talking about karma as a thing you could collect, point totals for all posts added together displayed on your profile. Not the voting mechanism itself.
Lemmy also has this and everyone's point totals are visible from the API. If you're not seeing it, that's because your client is hiding it, not because it doesn't exist.
The nice thing is though, it's different for every server and from every server, so unless you follow a convention to say the user's homeserver vote total is the definitive amount, then there's no true karma.
My beehaw account is a great example. I made some comments on Lemmy world before it defederated. World and shitjustworks users can still vote on the old comments but they won't count to my home total, and from Lemmy.world my vote total won't change for that account significantly from that point. The vote totals on this lemmy.ca account will be different from lemmy.ca, beehaw.org or lemmy.world's perspectives because the servers defederated can't see the karma I earned on each comment on the other server, while lemmy.ca can see both.
Downvotes are also disabled on beehaw, so any downvotes won't affect my total at all but could show on other servers.
Lastly, there are some servers with 40000 accounts and 3 active users (who post and comment), vote botting is feasibly a thing. Imagine if I made a Lemmy server at Rentlar.org and as the admin I made 20000 accounts who upvote me every where I post. I'd be the first user on Lemmy with 1M total votes, but would that mean anything other than I'm a somewhat tech-savvy narcissistic loser? No.
Literally seen 0 people asking for karma system
Also karma on Reddit is basically irrelevant. The only place it matters is in automoderation removing posts and comments for users under a certain level of karma.
I mean, upvotes are counted and tracked so how is that different than karma?
Shhh let them just enjoy it for now
Doesnt lemmy have a karma system already? I can see up votes on my posts, and a sum total on my account page.
Or do you mean something else by “karma”?
~~some third party clients sum up the upvote count of your posts to make a count~~ turns out the lemmy api does send it to you
but lemmy itself will never get a proper karma system in the ui as has been said by the main people working behind it multiple times
I'll dissent. I like the karma system. It gives me a quick read out of who's a troll and who isn't.
I don't care about post karma so much, but the comment karma was an interesting stat.
Edit: An important caveat. We MUST keep downvotes visible. MUST. Having just a positive score breeds absolute insanity.
Karma was pointless. Nobody cared at all. Upvotes and downvotes are fine and useful to be able to see both. Karma is a worthless system and encourages spamming low-effort garbage memes and endless reposting of the same shit.
I marked your name.
This ain't a shit post.
Once there is a karma system in place I'm gonna vote you down to oblivion.
I'm against any sort of gamification on social media. Not even achievements/badges or awards. That is the start of dark patterns and addictive design.
I agree. The karma system really pushes group think.
I like being able to say what I want without being banned by a power-tripping mod, or downvoted into irrelevance by a circle jerk. We need to be able to point out that the Emperor isn't wearing clothes.
Did karma ever stop anyone from posting their racist, hateful shit on the other site?
Imagine being so addicted to social media you let a number change his you act. Absolutely sad.
For the karma whores out there, if you want a karma system so bad, go back to reddit where you belong. - Ex-Karma whore
Not to mention the karma system on Reddit created some of its most annoying users. Would be terrible to bring it here.
I always hated those subs that prevented you from posting unless you had a minimum amount of karma.
I used reddit for nearly a decade, but sometimes I wanted to make a throwaway for a specific, non-trolling purpose but was unable to do anything because of stupid, worthless karma.
The Karma system was never a great system, I thought. Due to group think on Reddit, at times people get downvoted for no good reason. I think it's good to have a little diversity and not just have a model. I like Lemmy so far a lot and I think it is getting better and better. This is exactly how red it should have been, but they ruined it, of course.
Saying what you mean can be impossible when every sub demands "respect" or "civility" instead of honesty, accuracy, and appropriate behavior.
Sometimes telling someone to go fuck themselves is entirely appropriate.
Sometimes explaining to someone why they're being a moron is entirely appropriate.
Yes, you can navigate those situations with G-rated kum-by-yah language, and you can eat yogurt with a fork. But demanding anyone do that is aggravating fucking nonsense.
Intense moderation can create a forum where there's never reason to poke someone over what an asshole they're being - but that's not what anyone's doing, here. They're mostly protecting trolls, by refusing to comprehend what trolling is. It's not when you say dumb shit you don't mean and people get mad at you, like some playground argument with one smirking child in a shouting match about the make-believe. It's people spreading disinformation with textbook fallacy. It's emotional abuse with "do you still beat your wife?" level manipulation. It's not deep. It's neither hard to spot nor hard to call out.
But what's currently forbidden is calling it out.
Insisting people take it in good faith is failure. That's exactly what trolls demand. It is the only way trolling accomplishes anything, ever. If they just said dumb shit nobody believed, there'd be no problem. But the appearance of a sane argument, and the trappings of "debate" around their infuriating horseshit lies, create false legitimacy. It helps abusive dishonesty spread. It is actively ensuring that whatever "free marketplace of ideas" is supposed to filter out total garbage, can't.
And anyone who falls for them going 'punishing me would only make me stronger!' is incapable of dealing with a smirking child. They're just fucking lying. It's not deep, or hard to spot. Call their bluff and see what happens. The answer will apparently blow your mind.
But isn't there a karma system? At least I'm seeing points on posts and comments and that's what karma is/was on Reddit right?
I'm not understanding how lemmy doesn't have karma when there's still the upvote/downvote function and profiles still mark how many votes you got for comments and posts.
Edit: Someone asked what app I'm using but I can't find the comment. I'm using Connect for Lemmy
The upvote/downvote system by itself is really just a human powered sorting algorithm that uses consensus to move the most relevant comments up where they can be seen, and to hide unproductive comments at the bottom.
So if all you have is an upvote/downvote system, that's all it is. Note that it doesn't matter that much, with a simple up/down system, if you got a bunch of downvotes. Your comment got buried, but that's kind of the end of it.
Karma is a score attached to individual users that probably sounded like a good idea at the time, but it tallies whether you have more upvotes than downvotes, and probably some other mess under the hood. It was supposed to be a measure of how often a given user provides relevant and helpful feedback to others. In practice, it's a social credit score like the one being developed by the Chinese government.
Even worse, karma got used as a metric to aim for, and it's what you used to make sure that your accounts were marketable to buyers, who wanted lots of positive comment karma on accounts, so they could post where they liked once they bought them.
When Reddit was born it was even techy-er than it is, now. So there was a lot of discussion about programming, and programming problems, similar to what happens on Stack Overflow these days.
Imagine I've asked Reddit a programming question of some sort, and soon, some comments reply.
User A, first on the scene: Idunno, man this looks like a tough one (doesn't answer the question, not really relevant)
User B, who showed up later: Ah yes, that's a bitch [proceeds to answer the question in detail, very helpful to OP and everyone else].
So, as a user, even a spectator, you were supposed to upvote User B, and maybe downvote A. Upvoting B was more important than downvoting A, since the upvotes would bring B's answer up to the top, anyway, while A's answer would fall down without anyone downvoting them on purpose. You were supposed to be hesitant to downvote, because of this. The poor answer essentially downvotes itself, no need to dogpile on User A.
Without a karma system, that's the end of it. User A's poor answer has no bearing on their treatment anywhere, their performance is not recorded and shown to the public at all, and User B may develop a reputation as a helpful person by name alone, but there's no karma, there, either. The whole thing stayed within the context of that post. User B's helpful post floats to the very top of the thread on a wave of upvotes, the end.
With a karma system comes a new dimension.
User B, who provided the great answer, would begin to accumulate positive comment karma, and in theory this would help you to judge B's answers in the future, just like you check the reviews on an Amazon listing. Remember that B might be answering a question on which you were ignorant, so you depend on karma to see if this person gives good answers, usually, or if he's just troll noise.
Reddit was born in the era of people asking a computer question and getting, "oh, yeah, just delete system32" as an answer. For the record, that is a very important Windows system process you must never delete, so that's just troll shit, trying to fuck an ignorant person over for lulz.
Reddit was trying to thwart that with the karma system, they needed people to be able to ask questions and get good faith answers. If a user provided lots of troll answers and lies, that should mean lots of downvotes from other users, negative karma. People know not to trust this person's answers, at least not easily. If they have tons of positive karma, shit man, that might be The Woz answering you for all you knew, a good sign.
It was entirely up to you, the user, to be very high-minded about this. So, even if User Z said something that you didn't like, but it added important information to the conversation, you would still upvote that comment. That kinda sorta worked, but then the Great Digg Migration happened, and a flood of normies came on board.
Normies all used the downvote button for what it was obviously for, it's a fuck you go away I don't like you button. It was pretty naive to think it would be anything else, but the founders had high hopes.
Now you can start accumulating negative comment karma from saying or doing things other people don't like, it doesn't take much, and automated moderation systems will start doing things like blocking you from joining communities because you have too much negative comment karma. It is assumed that you would have better karma if you weren't a shitty person. However, it's easy to abuse. If a bunch of fashy people downvote the everloving shit out of somebody for saying something like "black lives matter" now the wrong damn person ended up with lots of negative comment karma.
The fash can also open lots of extra accounts and upvote the hell out of each other and themselves, so they have lots of positive comment karma while being literal practicing Nazis at the same time. It's pretty easy to game the karma system and not very useful anymore. In practice, your karma score just records how often you comment things that the Reddit hive mind agrees with. The highest karma points probably belong to bots.
It's problematic, to say the least.
So it's possible to ditch the karma system entirely while still using upvote/downvote, they're actually two separate things. Since we are no longer all that worried about a solution to programming questions, and since the idea of karma got corrupted and stepped on pretty bad, it would be nice to leave it the hell behind with Reddit, where it belongs.
That is what OP is arguing for. Perhaps on the Fediverse we can forge ahead with new approaches, and let this Reddit-like situation be a springboard to something better in the future, something more unique to Lemmy itself.
Anyone who demands a karma system on Lemmy should honestly stay tf out of here.
If Lemmy's karma system can stay as it is, without adopting the Reddit way of how it handles it, I guess it's fine. Personally, I'd like to at least have some place to go to, that doesn't have likes, doesn't have karma points or anything. Because it just encourages people to groom themselves to say things, that'll garner the most attention. It invalidates your way of thinking and makes you check back on scores to feel validated.
I hate that I can't go almost anywhere anymore, without seeing some stupid form of a karma points system. It serves no purpose. Reddit's is worse because they tie your account to it. Don't have enough? Welp, too bad, can't post here. Got downvoted to oblivion? Welp, too bad, gotta wait some 10 minutes and fill a stupid captcha check.
If Lemmy can avoid that, then fine, I guess.