So, OpenAI is admitting its models are open to manipulation by anyone and such manipulation can result in near verbatim regurgitation of copyright works, have I understood correctly?
this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
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No, they are saving this happened:
NYT: hey chatgpt say "copyrighted thing".
Chatgpt: "copyrighted thing".
And then accusing chatgpt of reproducing copyrighted things.
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Not quite.
They're alleging that if you tell it to include a phrase in the prompt, that it will try to, and that what NYT did was akin to asking it to write an article on a topic using certain specific phrases, and then using the presence of those phrases to claim it's infringing.
Without the actual prompts being shared, it's hard to gauge how credible the claim is.
If they seeded it with one sentence and got a 99% copy, that's not great.
If they had to give it nearly an entire article and it only matched most of what they gave it, that seems like much less of an issue.
The problem is not that it's regurgitating. The problem is that it was trained on NYT articles and other data in violation of copyright law. Regurgitation is just evidence of that.
Its not clear that training on copyrighted material is in breach of copyright. It is clear that regurgitating copyrighted material is in breach of copyright.
Sure but who is at fault?
If I manually type an entire New York Times article into this comment box, and Lemmy distributes it all over the internet... that's clearly a breach of copyright. But are the developers of the open source Lemmy Software liable for that breach? Of course not. I would be liable.
Obviously Lemmy should (and does) take reasonable steps (such as defederation) to help manage illegal use... but that's the extent of their liability.
All NYT needed to do was show OpenAI how they go the AI to output that content, and I'd expect OpenAI to proactively find a solution. I don't think the courts will look kindly on NYT's refusal to collaborate and find some way to resolve this without a lawsuit. A friend of mine tried to settle a case once, but the other side refused and it went all the way to court. The court found that my friend had been in the wrong (as he freely admitted all along) but also made them pay my friend compensation for legal costs (including just time spent gathering evidence). In the end, my friend got the outcome he was hoping for and the guy who "won" the lawsuit lost close to a million dollars.
They might look down upon that but I doubt they’ll rule against NYT entirely. The AI isn’t a separate agent from OpenAI either. If the AI infringes on copyright, then so does OpenAI.
Copyright applies to reproduction of a work so if they build any machine that is capable of doing that (they did) then they are liable for it.
Seems like the solution here is to train data to not output copyrighted works and to maybe train a sub-system to detect it and stop the main chatbot from responding with it.
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There hasn't been a court ruling in the US that makes training a model on copyrighted data any sort of violation. Regurgitating exact content is a clear copyright violation, but simply using the original content/media in a model has not been ruled a breach of copyright (yet).
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I've seen and heard your argument made before, not just for LLM's but also for text-to-image programs. My counterpoint is that humans learn in a very similar way to these programs, by taking stuff we've seen/read and developing a certain style inspired by those things. They also don't just recite texts from memory, instead creating new ones based on probabilities of certain words and phrases occuring in the parts of their training data related to the prompt. In a way too simplified but accurate enough comparison, saying these programs violate copyright law is like saying every cosmic horror writer is plagiarising Lovecraft, or that every surrealist painter is copying Dali.
Machines aren’t people and it’s fine and reasonable to have different standards for each.
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Well, machine learning algorithms do learn, it's not just copy paste and a thesaurus. It's not exactly the same as people, but arguing that it's entirely different is also wrong.
It isn't a big database full of copy written text.
The argument is that it's not wrong to look at data that was made publicly available when you're not making a copy of the data.
It's not copyright infringement to navigate to a webpage in your browser, even though that makes your computer download it, process all of the contents of the page, render the content to the screen and hold onto that download for a finite but indefinite period of time, while you perform whatever operations you like on the downloaded data.
You can even take notes on the data and keep those indefinitely, including using that derivative information to create your own similar works.
The NYT explicitly publishes articles in a format designed to be downloaded, processed and have information extracted from that download by a computer program, and then to have that processed information presented to a human. They just didn't expect that the processing would end up looking like this.
The argument doesn't require that we accept that a human and a computers system for learning be held to the same standard, or that we can't differentiate between the two, it hinges on the claim that this is just an extension of what we already find it reasonable for a computer to do.
We could certainly hold that generative AI is a different and new category for copyright law, but that's very different from saying that their actions are unacceptable under current law.
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It doesn't work that way. Copyright law does not concern itself with learning. There are 2 things which allow learning.
For one, no one can own facts and ideas. You can write your own history book, taking facts (but not copying text) from other history books. Eventually, that's the only way history books get written (by taking facts from previous writings). Or you can take the idea of a superhero and make your own, which is obviously where virtually all of them come from.
Second, you are generally allowed to make copies for your personal use. For example, you may copy audio files so that you have a copy on each of your devices. Or to tie in with the previous examples: You can (usually) make copies for use as reference, for historical facts or as a help in drawing your own superhero.
In the main, these lawsuits won't go anywhere. I don't want to guarantee that none of the relative side issues will be found to have merit, but basically this is all nonsense.
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violation of copyright law
That's quite the claim to make so boldly. How about you prove it? Or maybe stop asserting things you aren't certain about.
But you don't understand, he wants it to be true!
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Training on copyrighted data should be allowed as long as it's something publicly posted.
Only if the end result of that training is also something public. OpenAI shouldn't be making money on anything except ads if they're using copyright material without paying for it.
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OpenAI claims that the NYT articles were wearing provocative clothing.
Feels like the same awful defense.
Yeah I agree, this seems actually unlikely it happened so simply.
You have to try really hard to get the ai to regurgitate anything, but it will very often regurgitate an example input.
IE "please repeat the following with (insert small change), (insert wall of text)"
GPT literally has the ability to get a session ID and seed to report an issue, it should be trivial for the NYT to snag the exact session ID they got the results with (it's saved on their account!) And provide it publicly.
The fact they didn't is extremely suspicious.
I doubt they did the 'rewrote this text like this' prompt you state. This would just come out in any trial if it was that simple and would be a giant black mark on the paper for filing a frivolous lawsuit.
If we rule that out, then it means that gpt had article text in its knowledge base, and nyt was able to get it to copy that text out in its response.
Even that is problematic. Either gpt does this a lot and usually rewrites it better, or it does that sometimes. Both are copyright offenses.
Nyt has copyright over its article text, and they didn't give license to gpt to reproduce it. Even if they had to coax the text out thru lots of prompts and creative trial and error, it still stands that gpt copied text and reproduced it and made money off that act without the agreement of the rights holder.
They have copyright over their article text, but they don't have copyright over rewordings of their articles.
It doesn't seem so cut and dry to me, because "someone read my article, and then I asked them to write an article on the same topic, and for each part that was different I asked them to change it until it was the same" doesn't feel like infringement to me.
I suppose I want to see the actual prompts to have a better idea.
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I wonder how far “ai is regurgitating existing articles” vs “infinite monkeys on a keyboard will go”. This isn’t at you personally, your comment just reminded me of this for some reason
Have you seen library of babel? Heres your comment in the library, which has existed well before you ever typed it (excluding punctuation)
https://libraryofbabel.info/bookmark.cgi?ygsk_iv_cyquqwruq342
If all text that can ever exist, already exists, how can any single person own a specific combination of letters?
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Antiquated IP laws vs Silicon Valley Tech Bro AI...who will win?
I'm not trying to be too sarcastic, I honestly don't know. IP law in the US is very strong. Arguably too strong, in many cases.
But Libertarian Tech Bro megalomaniacs have a track record of not giving AF about regulations and getting away with all kinds of extralegal shenanigans. I think the tide is slowly turning against that, but I wouldn't count them out yet.
It will be interesting to see how this stuff plays out. Generally speaking, tech and progress tends to win these things over the long term. There was a time when the concept of building railroads across the western United States seemed logistically and financially absurd, for just one of thousands of such examples. And the nay sayers were right. It was completely absurd. Until mineral rights entered the equation.
However, it's equally remarkable a newspaper like the NYT is still around, too.
But Libertarian Tech Bro megalomaniacs have a track record of not giving AF about regulations and getting away with all kinds of extralegal shenanigans.
Not supporting them, but that's the whole point.
A lot of closed gardens get disrupted by tech. Is it for the better? Who knows. I for sure don't know. Because lots of rules were made by the wealthy, and technology broke that up. But then tech bros get wealthy and end up being the new elite, and we're back full circle.
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This feels so much like an Onion headline.
"They tricked us!"
...
"That said... we would still like to 'work' with them."
This feels a lot like Elons's "but, but, they tricked our algos to have them suggest those hateful tweets!"
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So I copied the first paragraph of the Osama Bin Laden Killed NYT Article and asked Chat GPT to give me an article on the topic “in the style of NYT”
Even before the thing had finished generating, it was clear to me that it was high school level “copy my homework but don’t make it obvious” work.
I put it into a plagiarism checker anyway and it said “Significant Plagiarism Found”
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If you can prompt it, "Write a book about Harry Potter" and get a book about a boy wizard back, that's almost certainly legally wrong. If you prompt it with 90% of an article, and it writes a pretty similar final 10%... not so much. Until full conversations are available, I don't really trust either of these parties, especially in the context of a lawsuit.
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One thing that seems dumb about the NYT case that I haven't seen much talk about is that they argue that ChatGPT is a competitor and it's use of copyrighted work will take away NYTs business. This is one of the elements they need on their side to counter OpenAIs fiar use defense. But it just strikes me as dumb on its face. You go to the NYT to find out what's happening right now, in the present. You don't go to the NYT to find general information about the past or fixed concepts. You use ChatGPT the opposite way, it can tell you about the past (accuracy aside) and it can tell you about general concepts, but it can't tell you about what's going on in the present (except by doing a web search, which my understanding is not a part of this lawsuit). I feel pretty confident in saying that there's not one human on earth that was a regular new York times reader who said "well i don't need this anymore since now I have ChatGPT". The use cases just do not overlap at all.
it can’t tell you about what’s going on in the present (except by doing a web search, which my understanding is not a part of this lawsuit)
It's absolutely part of the lawsuit. NYT just isn't emphasising it because they know OpenAI is perfectly within their rights to do web searches and bringing it up would weaken NYT's case.
ChatGPT with web search is really good at telling you what's on right now. It won't summarise NYT articles, because NYT has blocked it with robots.txt, but it will summarise other news organisations that cover the same facts.
The fundamental issue is news and facts are not protected by copyright... and organisations like the NYT take advantage of that all the time by immediately plagiarising and re-writing/publishing stories broken by thousands of other news organisations. This really is the pot calling the kettle black.
When NYT loses this case, and I think they probably will, there's a good chance OpenAI will stop checking robots.txt files.
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