739
Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
739 points (94.5% liked)
politics
19170 readers
4706 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
And wouldn't you know it, there's a lot more to an administration than their stance on Israel. Stop trying to boil everything down to truisms and catchphrases. If you really don't think that the left has had a sizeable impact on Biden's admin, we don't really have a lot to talk about here.
The left has had a sizeable impact on Biden's domestic policies. Including the Inflation Reduction Act, American Rescue Plan, and the Bipartisan infrastructure Law.
The Biden administration has been funding and arming the Israeli genocide of Gaza
Both are true. And genocide is the worst thing a country can do. I learned that in 6th grade when we learned about the importance of ensuring "Never Again" re: the Holocaust
I just don't understand the pragmatism here. You sit the election out, Trump wins, Gaza is leveled for a mega church the next week and American democracy is in danger. You sit the election out, Biden wins, he now gives 0 fucks about your leverage in his second term because he doesn't need it. You vote, Trump wins, Gaza still gets leveled for the mega church. You vote, Biden wins, progressives now have leverage to force Biden into a harsher stance on Israel in his second term, exactly like you've been doing already in his first.
Subtlety and nuance have never been a strength of populist movements, but the left should really examine their impact on Biden's Israel stance. No, he hasn't completely blown up our relationship with Israel, but this is the harshest stance America has taken against Israel possibly since its inception. I'm one of the huge percentage who want further action done to bring Israel to heel, but my only realistic avenue to achieve that is by continuing to exact the leverage I have while keeping that leverage intact.
Frankly, if you want anything more, the left needs to grow and get more powerful. Objectively right now, they are weaker than the major political parties, which is what has forced them into this relationship. If you want a president who is going to give you your deepest wishes with no concessions, you're going to need to get a hell of a lot stronger. Frankly, because of that lack of pragmatism and political capital, I don't see it happening in my lifetime.
I don't see how voting for a hypothetically successful Biden candidacy would create any leverage on Biden. He is term limited and cannot run for reelection if he wins in November. And even if Kamala/Newsom/Whitmer/etc want to win in 2028, I don't see how anti-Zionists uniformly voting for Biden in 2024 will have any bearing on their development of policy re:Israel. If anything, voting for him in November despite Israel's genocide seems to demonstrate that Israel can do whatever it wants, including exterminating the Palestinians, and Dems still won't meaningfully lose any votes. It's the same concept as Trump saying he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and not lose any votes - here, it seems that Dems/Biden can do anything including funding and arming a genocide, and, under your hypothetical, they won't lose any votes. How does that enable anti-Zionists to get leverage? If anything, it encourages establishment politicians to disregard anti-Zionists and take them for granted.
Also,
I'm not bothered by this, but this sort of rhetoric is highly unpersuasive and will not cause you to persuade anyone to your point of view, which I assume is your goal. It makes it less likely that people will agree with you when you insult them. Especially when you imply there is something innate about them that prevents them from being as rational as you. It's othering, and it creates resentment, not changed views
You admit above that progressives have used leverage to have a large influence on the Biden admin. It's the same principle. Biden makes promises to get elected, which you then hold him to during his term. You did it with student aid (even if the Supreme Court squashed the largest one), you did it with the FTC, you did it with the climate and infrastructure bills. You had to compromise, because of course other people have power and leverage to use, but you got solid returns. You could flip your argument on term limits on its head and say he would be even more unconstrained to pursue the agenda his voters want.
Can you answer me on what the alternative does? Trump is not going to be an anti Zionist. He's going to hurt more Palestinians, harder. He's going to devastate international relations and create similar crises across the globe, which will hurt even more people. At what point do you take responsibility for those genocides you didn't help to prevent? At what point do people's lives override strict principles?
I'm sorry, you're right that I shouldn't be slinging that sort of thing. On that same token, myself and a lot of others have been called "genocidal" and various other things for the belief that it's not as simple as Biden just yeeting every ounce of support out of Israel because of the broader context of the middle east.
To be clear, I love the left. They are America's heart and lead with empathy, which is so sorely needed in politics. I just think that the left, as a combined group, lacks pragmatism in favor of principle. That tendency has led to the left not having any true power for a century, and that's only if you consider FDR a leftist, which a hell of a lot of leftists would not. I need wins. I need rights. The democrats deliver that for me. Not always, but I have multiple rights as a gay woman that I would not have without them. So like, nothing would make me happier than the left infecting and overtaking the democratic party. Please do it! But until then, I think it's foolish to use the left's leverage this way. It's cruel to those you leave behind when you sit at home. It's cruel to those who will be affected by the genocides that will be started and strengthened by a Trump admin. It's cruel for the sake of political gamesmanship, which is exactly what the democratic party is accused of constantly.
Agreed
Biden is a zionist. If left unconstrained he would be even more supportive of Israel than he currently is. He doesn't like the brutality of the current genocide because it's bad optics. But he agrees with the ultimate result of Israel waging total war and permanently annexing Gaza. Once he is reelected he will have no accountability at all on this issue - and he only is accountable to a very modest extent currently because he needs to win Michigan in November. Once November is over that won't be the case.
Agreed.
So it seems that the options that our system has presented us with are voting either for an active genocide, or voting for the creation of additional genocides in addition to escalation of the current one. If that is the choice the system offers us then aren't we compelled to restructure the United States and replace our system itself? At the very least, violence and death required to sustain our country must be fully acknowledged and its truth must be exposed. Biden and the United States are causing the occurrence of a genocide. If that is our least harmful option then Xi and Putin (who are worse than us) are correct to use this as an opportunity to permanently destroy American/Western moral clarity.
Don't sell your rage short. It is one of the constraints on a president's behavior.
And in favor of what? Putin or Xi's moral clarity? I'm unhappy with the situation in Gaza, but as flawed as the West might be, I'm of the opinion that it creates much fewer human rights atrocities. I want it improved and refined, not dismantled. In the absence of stability, do you really think leftism is what is going to rise out of the ashes? Like, really consider what you're advocating for here. How do you fight a genocide in Gaza by dismantling our own democracy at home and kicking off hundreds more in the struggle to fill the void of American hegemony? Again, I find myself questioning the pragmatism of these options.
I genuinely see a path to a better tomorrow through maintaining our democracy long enough for the boomers to age out a bit more and then filling that vacuum with a more leftist party to contend with the more centrist democrats. Even better would be a growing and pragmatic left that uses bargaining, cooperation, and political capital to achieve their ends. Getting back to a sane form of "bipartisanship" once we have rubbed the modern conservative populist movement into the ground. Rivals that can at least agree on the fundamentals of humanity.
At the end of the day, I want to flip the general leftist position. I'm a social democrat. I'm super open to a ton of leftist positions. Why would I want to vote for the left right now? They're angry, disorganized, almost powerless, refuse to compromise, and the rising populism movement's inability to perceive and work with the nuances of government are extremely concerning. I hear more about what's wrong from them than I ever do an actual solution.
I need solutions and I need us to remain on the rails so those improvements can be made. Asking for the country to collapse is just cruel to so many people. Possibly literal magnitudes above a genocide in Gaza.