this post was submitted on 16 Feb 2024
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I think the hard-distinction that trans people have as putting themselves in little boxes like 'feminine' and 'masculine' are kind of harming the whole idea.
Having tea parties isn't girly. Playing with dolls isn't girly. Wearing pants isn't masculine. Playing in the dirt as a kid isn't masculine. They're just kid things. There's too much emphasis on what's boy or girl like, and people are convinced they're "a girl" because...they like pink? They like tea parties? They like the clothes that girls wear? You can still be a guy and like those things, those aren't "girl things", they're just things. I hate this idea that everything has to fall into one of those two categories, and if you like something from the 'other side' you're trans.
It's perfectly acceptable to like/do things that the other sex does, without BEING that sex.
Yes. This is just gender stereotypes. Let's abolish gender stereotypes instead. You do you, fam.
Yup. When I was a teen I had a lot of dark coloured clothing, I wasn't a goth but my family thought I preferred dark clothes. I actually prefer bright colours, whether it's pink, yellow or baby blues. The older I get the less of a shit I give with expectations of gender stereotypes. I'm 27 and had my hair dyed bright blue a couple years ago and I got comments from middle aged men telling me that there was something wrong with that. I still get comments from the guy who lives across the road too.
I'm a Cis, straight man. Know what my favourite colour was growing up? Magenta
Objectively the most lit color in the CMYK color process.
Do you like reading books?
Colour me shocked.
Yes it's fine to do gender non conforming things, for both cis and trans people.
But being trans is not simply a presentation preference.
I'm all set up for the down votes, but in my experience as a non-trans individual, there are two common components to being trans. There is the masculine/feminine side of things, aka gender, which I find to be incredibly stupid because it's a cultural construct that is largely self imposed in the adult world as long as you don't have hair thick skin. I really want to do away with gender and gender roles entirely so no one is in a box and everyone can do what they want regardless of what they identify as.
Then there is the body dysmophia side of things, where you physically do not feel comfortable with the way your body presents. This I totally understand, despite not suffering from it, and is imo the only legit reason to transition.
If anyone wants to teach me anything about this, feel free to leave a civil comment and we can have a discussion.
I’m afab, but don’t feel like a woman. I recently immigrated to a country with a gendered language, and it feels almost like faking an accent to use feminine words to refer to myself- like I’m clearly misleading people, but in a mostly harmless way. I’m not sure if I’ll ever transition, but if I do, it won’t be because of me hating being inside my body, it will be because it feels more honest to those around me and I kinda feel like a scumbag “deceiving” them constantly.
I don’t really know much about trans theory, so I don’t know if there’s a good argument to convince you, but I think mine is a good reason to transition.
Afab? And yeah that's kinda my point, I want to do away with gendered language because it seems kinda pointless. And can you explain more about what you mean by deceiving people?
Assigned female at birth-in my case it means I’ve been treated like a woman my whole life and have a female body.
In a utopian world, there might not be gendered language (and the women I’ve talked to about it here mostly feel empowerment by it, so who knows), but I don’t live in that world. I don’t think it’s fair to put the burden of ending sexism on trans people before we transition (not that you were, but some do). Trans people are a pretty small part of the population and we’re having a tough enough time getting people to allow us to legally transition, we can’t change the culture ourselves, so we have to exist in a gendered culture (I also think it’s dumb, but I can’t make much of a difference there. As a basically still closeted trans person, I’m probably doing a lot to go against traditional gender roles though, on second thought).
It feels like when I introduce myself as a woman (or in this language use any adjective or noun to describe myself), it doesn’t feel true to me. I don’t know why (and I’m not planning on making any significant changes until I do), but it just feels like I’m hiding something when I suggest that I’m a woman.
I know that’s nebulous, but so is identity. I know women well: I have sisters and plenty of female friends and I’ve dated women. I don’t think I fit the model for how women relate to the world. I feel like my perspective is much closer to that of the men I know.
Weirdly, other people also don’t treat me completely like a woman either. No one’s ever spoken over me in a meeting (though I’ve occasionally seen it happen to other women in these meetings), I’m given heavy things to carry, and my bosses have mostly given me decision making power pretty early on. I have experienced sexism (and certainly the kind of sexual harassment that comes from existing in a city), but less so than other women seem to. I’m pretty tall and well spoken, but slim and baby-faced, so I don’t know how much can be attributed to my appearance.
I think appearance does impact this. I'm tallish (same height as average man here) and slim straight build, not the plush womanly figure and yes, people seem quicker to assume I am smart or strong than ladies who are shorter/busty/curvy. Which has got to be infuriating to be on the other side of.
I did read once that androgynous-ish people and those who disregard sex roles are happier, on average, than people who hold tightly to sex roles. Maybe this is part of why, we get treated more as a person than simply man or woman.
Assigned Female At Birth
Basically, what did the doctors guess your gender was going to be based on your genitals.
You were assigned a sex at birth. If you have female genitals, you're a female (the sex, not the gender). That's what gets assigned at birth. Doctors don't give a shit about gender, and do not assign it when you are born. Gender is a societal construct, and something you adopt as you age/learn. Sex is for the purposes of identifying you for paperwork/citizenship.
I really hate this prevailing idea in trans communities that doctors "gender" you at birth. They don't. They issue a classification of sex based on your genitalia for the purposes of identification.
That's actually a pretty contentious topic in trans circles (transmedicalism/truscum). Personally I don't really see the issue with transitioning for whatever (well-informed) reason, as long as you're not taking up resources for those with dysmorphia
Check out the Gender Dysphoria Bible online; it's a very good resource. Or read the WPATH-8 recommendations if you want the actual scientific/medical consensus.
In my experience as a trans person with gnc tendencies, you cannot simply wish away gender for everybody. There are people who don't really feel any attachment ("agender" people). But most people do, deeply.
As an aside, starting a conversation by gatekeeping how people in a group you don't belong to are allowed to feel, then gatekeeping how they are allowed to express themselves, is generally not a way to get them to open up to you.
The equivalent for me might be "as a white person, in my opinion there are only two valid reasons for a black person to have their hair in locks (a and b), any black people who want to respectfully explain anything about that to me are free to do so..."
If I open the conversation like that, I'm not likely to gather much new information.
I think that may be why you're not getting the polite interactions you're looking for, your post was not particularly friendly.
That's fair, I need to take more care for how I phrase things. I appreciate the resource, but I've found that I don't learn as well from textbook esque resources than I do from having conversations. I'm very confident that I am agender, so I suppose my experiences are reflected in my beliefs. But it seems very odd to me that more people within the LGBT community don't agree with my line of reasoning, as it's a more freedom based approach to the same goal of liberation from gender roles.
As far as the gatekeeping goes, I explained why I phrased it that way in another comment, but I do agree it was a poor choice.
And so far no one has actually attacked me, so I consider these discussions to be fairly successful, although I wish people wouldn't downvote that other user as that stifles their point of view.
That's the issue I have generally - is the automatic assumption people take that I am attacking them rather than trying to have a conversation so that I can educate myself on the topic and understand better.
I'm just gonna quote something else you said in this thread
I didn't read this in reply to me and think "oh, here is somebody who is attempting to educate themselves and understand me better."
If your goal is to get people to share some of their most intimate and complex personal experiences with you, perhaps there are more effective communication styles?
Can you see how it might come off as somebody who believes they already know the topic and is trying to educate other people?
I'm correcting a misconception that person had about their experiences. Doctors do not give you a gender. They assign a sex (M or F) for the purposes of identification.
Is wholly untrue and counterproductive to tell people. I've been told many times that your gender is not your sex, and they are two separate things. To incorrectly espouse that doctors assign gender and not sex upon birth, is frankly, appalling. This is not something that is open for opinion, it is a statement of fact. And an incorrect statement of fact is either ignorance, or malice.
People are still throwing "gender reveal" parties for their unborn infants. If you think doctors in the real world aren't concerned with fitting children into sex-assigned gender norms, you experienced a different medical system from me.
Is it right that doctors and parents, in general, guess gender based on genitalia? Is it good? I think we agree that it isn't.
But it is the case.
Tbf I suspect society has called them gender reveal parties because sex (reveal) parties can be miscommunicative in an entirely different way.
"It's got a dooong" also has a different vibe from "it's a boooy".
Idk, no horse in this race. Those parties are stupid anyways.
Our close family friend is an OBGYN, and I assure you, doctors in the real world are not concerned whatsoever at the point of birth. It's something I can confidently say as we've had discussions about it in the past.
When a doctor delivers a child, the only thing on their mind is that the child is delivered alive and healthy. The paperwork is just part of the job, and at that point in the child's life it's really only about identification of the individual. Is it right that parents guess the gender based on genitalia? I'd say it is; because in most instances, it's correct. I think the problem stems from the point at which you see signs that it isn't correct. I think most individuals keep barreling ahead, at that point - forcing that particular gender identity on their child. Which I can agree - is wrong; and something I am guilty of with my child earlier on.
Oh please explain this more. We need your cis gender expertise to explain how gender doesn't matter
Wtf. First, why else would someone transition? And even so, who are you to gatekeep what reasons are legit?
As for the first part, I feel like I explained it fairly well. Literally just do what you want. It's the equivalent of saying "I'm nerdy, so I can only do nerdy things."
As for the second part, yeah I mean I shouldn't be gatekeeping but I phrased it that way to show that I do understand that reason.
With that being said, I posted that with the hope of learning, and while your comment feels a little aggressive, I appreciate that you stayed civil. Can you explain why my understanding of gender does not work?
Because it's mostly coming from a place that you simply can't understand. Gender isn't just a social construct. Gender roles are, but telling trans people that "hey gender doesn't matter, just do what you want" is extremely patronizing coming from someone who feels comfortable in their gender.
And even if gender was a social construct, we live in a society. And part of being a particular gender is how people in society treat you. Seeing cis women treated one way, and then being treated another can be dysphoric as fuck, even when the difference is sexist as fuck and obviously just a social differentiation. In the end, you're right, most of the differences in how the different genders are created are due to society, but that doesn't make them any less part of living as a particular gender.
In my eyes, swapping genders to get treated differently seems to be a hopeless endeavour, and it reinforces the idea of gender roles. I understand that society doesn't change because you want it to, but it would also help to fight sexism if we ignored the concept of gender roles.
If someone makes fun of you for being masculine while wearing a dress, publicly shame them and society will eventually realize that that doesn't work. But by transitioning to be treated like a woman, you are letting them win because you are simply accepting that "this is the way women are treated"
I've heard that it's not something I can understand because I'm comfortable in my gender, but I don't think that's true. I'm extremely open minded and very capable of putting myself in others shoes, which is why I have the views I have. Also, I don't feel like I have a gender because I simply don't engage with society in a way that would allow for gender, hence why I believe everyone should be agender. I just want to take the shortest path to actually fixing the problem instead of prolonging it. If someone could accurately explain what it feels like "to be a man/woman" without bringing gender roles into it, I feel like I would be able to understand that. But every time I ask, I get answers to how they choose to engage with society instead of what that feeling actually feels like.
I did hear someone in this thread say that they enjoy expressing their gender, and unless they're referring to gender roles that they engage in, I currently don't understand how that is possible.
That was a bit of a rant but I wanted to add in as much context as possible, thank you for your comment
Edit: I phrased part of that poorly, so here's a correction: in order to do away with sexism and treating genders differently, we as a society and as a movement should choose not to engage with bigots who perpetuate gender roles, such as not working for companies that have a wage gap, and not dating people who won't let you wear the clothes you want. In this way, we will eventually force people to accept that the genders are equal in all ways, thereby eliminating them as a necessary construct.
No, it's because you're comfortable with your gender. Thinking you're too enlightened to be concerned with gender is again, patronizing as fuck, implying that trans people just care too much about things that don't matter.
You're actively trying to not understand it. Being a man/woman is simply a matter of being treated like you would any other man or woman. And I know you're going to respond with "I don't treat people differently". Even if that were the case, which there's no way that's true. Even if you were 100% bisexual, attracted to both genders identically, and really could ignore 10s of thousands of years of cultural history, that's not what most people want. Even if YOU could, most people prefer there to be gendered differences. There are just some inherent biological differences. No one is saying people's roles should be defined by their gender, or for limiting people of any gender to express themselves any way they see fit. But if you're saying that football or hockey or boxing aren't inherently masculine, then I don't know what to tell you.
Those are forced gender biases, not necessarily roles. Unless you're saying that it's possible for everyone to be 100% bisexual and have no preference whatsoever for gender in any way, then your whole argument is missing the entire point, just so you can proclaim you "don't see gender". It's similar to how racists always say they "don't see race".
By simply mocking the person for saying gender roles are stupid, the naive conclusion is that you are for gender roles.
If there's nuance there, it'd be great for you to tease that out, otherwise it just looks like you're for gender roles, or gatekeeping the topic.
Many trans people (me included) strongly identify with a gender.
If we didn't strongly identify with a gender, why on earth would we put ourselves through this lengthy, expensive, socially punishing, and often painful transition process? The joy of living as yourself (which, for many of us, includes gender expression) makes it worthwhile.
Gender roles, like "men are doctors, women are nurses?" Very often, those are fucking bullshit.
Wanting to be recognized as a man/woman, and valuing that, does not imply being on board with sexism.
Shouldn't we be making the distinction between TransSex and TransGender in that case then?
I've been told very conflicting opinions on the whole topic; from genitals don't matter AT ALL in terms of being identified as a man/woman, to genitals being the defining thing that needs changing for a person to feel whole.
I'm the type of person who needs to understand things logically, and a lot of the time upon trying to understand - I'm given completely different goalposts by completely different people. How do I understand all the different opinions on the topic, in a way that allows me to logically follow a thought process in order to distinguish these different ways of thinking?
All of this resists easy categories because we are talking about people and societies (which are both incredibly complicated).
The position that "genitals are the only thing that matters in all cases" is very much not a position I agree with. I had such bad bottom dysphoria that I got the surgery. But I have friends who are gender conforming, sexy women that don't experience bottom dysphoria and have no plans for surgery. They are no less trans or less women because of it.
In the community, the term "non-op" is often used to refer to people who can get where they want to be without surgery (wish it had been me, would have been a lot less work), and "Pre-op" / "post-op" for people who do want it, depending on status.
You may very well have talked to people who said "my surgery was everything, I needed it so much and that was what I needed to feel happy". That's a completely legit way to feel, I don't want to downplay that. For me personally, hormones were almost as important; for a lot of people hormones are The Thing, for others it's attire and presentation and social interaction.
I can't give you simple answers. There aren't any.
There's simply no logical answer that will apply to everyone. But no, transSex isn't a thing. You can't change your sex, because that's biological. Your gender is simply your presentation. It doesn't mean you necessarily have to fit into any specific box. It can definitely be confusing. But no one is talking about gender roles. It's about presentation. There is generally a feminine way to present and a masculine way to present. And a boy presenting feminine is just fundamentally different from a trans-fem person in ways that are difficult to classify. Because gender is a spectrum
https://old.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/yzg4b9/transgender_vs_transsexual/iwztr2a/ -- This person says transsex is a thing and it's distinct from transgender. :[
Why does nobody agree on this crap?! According to others, there IS a distinction between transgender and transsex. But you're telling me there isn't...
I swear to god I'm trying to understand... but as soon as I think I am starting to, someone bitches at me for being ignorant and apparently not understanding...
Because language isn't precise.
People are free to describe themselves how they want.
That's great, but understanding and trying to logically define and categorize are different things. What does it really matter to you whether someone prefers one term or another?
I think your problem might be what I posted. Understanding doesn't necessarily mean categorizing. If someone told you they were raped, would you need to ask them if there was penile and vaginal penetration? And if there wasn't, would you try to tell them that they weren't actually raped? Or what about if someone is blind, if they can see light and shadows but aren't 100% blind, would you try to tell them they weren't?
It's kind of the same idea here. There's no neat categorizations. Understanding is more like empathizing. And I guarantee no one will bitch if you do your best to just treat someone how they appear to present, and then adjust if they tell you you're wrong. If you see someone wearing a dress with long hair, it's a very good bet you can refer to them as "she". It doesn't mean you should catcall them, or ask them why they aren't at home in the kitchen, or assume any sexist gender roles. But you DO treat women different from men in society, even if it's ONLY by the pronouns you use. Simply do the same for someone who is attempting to present as feminine unless you're told otherwise. You might be wrong, but only the absolute biggest assholes in the world would be offended at your attempt.
But whether that person has decided to have surgery doesn't really matter. The same way it wouldn't matter if a cis woman had a this condition https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vaginal-agenesis/symptoms-causes/syc-20355737 and you tried to lawyer her saying she wasn't a woman.
You said:
But...it is. Language isn't precise, certainly, but it's not that "fuzzy" either. And it certainly exists to define things in order to better understand them. You can't just hand-wave away with an "it's complicated". Yes, some of the most complex topics in the world are complicated, but we've still managed to define them in clean, understandable ways.
I think this is the major hurdle for acceptance. If something can be understood, then it can be described. If it can be described, it can be taught. If it can be taught, it can be accepted. Approaching someone who would be willing to accept - without being able to give a real answer - relies on them having faith - much like religion - instead of understanding.
Sure, maybe I was being too strong there by saying it's not a thing. People do use it. But I would be cautious of using it yourself unless someone tells you specifically that they want to be referred that way.
It really doesn't. It relies on them not being an asshole. And not making generalizations. The intricacies don't matter on a day to day level of interacting with people who you're not intimately familiar with. Treat them as you would any other person of the gender that they're presenting as. That's literally all there is to it. Anything more is personal preference to the individual, just like it would be for any non trans person. Do you need to understand the intricacies of tomboy vs butch to interact with a woman wearing pants? No? Then you don't need the same level of detail for trans people either.
Maybe the VERY naive conclusion by someone who isn't interested in any nuance at all. Because I didn't quote anything related to gender roles. I mocked him for his comment suggesting that gender itself is a construct. Which is patronizing as fuck by someone who feels comfortable in their gender
So this might be because I personally have not experienced qualms with my gender, but if someone takes away societal gender norms, and takes away body dysmorphia, what is "left" to define gender as?
I see that you mentioned "how society treats you" is another aspect, but is that not just another cultural gendered norm?
I know I've expanded gender roles to gender norms - I believe the latter is what OP was asking about since he claimed gender is a societal construct.
And like I've said in other parts of this thread - there's no need to answer if you're not feeling it. You're just chilling online, this isn't a challenge to your existence or anything else meant to make you feel uncomfortable. Just someone who attended diversity and sexuality courses almost a decade ago who doesn't know much these days.
I mean, this is becoming so hypothetical. You assume that taking away gender norms is possible or even desired. I don't know the latest research, but as far as I understand it's not certain that there's 0 biological component to gender expression. Like another poster mentioned, people are tied to their gender. They like how they express it.
And furthermore, "removing body [dysphoria]" is hand waving away a LOT. That's the primary reason people transition. But it's tied into how society views gender, and that view is at least informed by biology. So extracting that isn't a useful exercise imo. It's possible that in a different society that doesn't differentiate between gender, then trans people wouldn't feel a need to transition. But yeah I don't know how that would be a helpful thing to think about.
Full disclosure, I have decided not to transition. And I'm hesitant to call myself trans only because I think that label comes with a lot of implications for how the world treats you, and I would feel that I'm co-opting the term. So I'm basically coming from the place of someone with dysphoria.
Because to be honest, I actually don't relate much with the trans people like the post in the OP who liked stereotypically girly things as a kid. But now I wonder if that was because I felt I couldn't, or I would be judged, or just because I happen to not like those things. I don't really know where I'm going with this. But I guess my point is, you're asking for a logical explanation and concrete rules. And that's just not possible to give because many trans people don't even know themselves what "being a woman" or "being a man" actually means. Just that something is wrong. And there's not a simple fix. It's not just a matter of clothes, because whenever I see myself in women's clothes it actually makes my dsyphoria worse. Because all you see in the mirror is a man in a dress, not a woman ( a common feeling https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/vz3qlf/overcoming_man_on_a_dress_feeling/ ). And it's not about your interests, because as you correctly point out, girls are totally free to like "boy" things and vice versa, and that doesn't and shouldn't necessarily imply they're trans.