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"Breeding animals for consumption is fine, except this one."
It is slightly odd how people are like, "cows? Gimme that burger. Sheep? Mmm, mint sauce. Chicken? Batter that baby up". But then suddenly everyone turns into a vegan when it's a dog or a horse.
I've got no interest in eating dog meat, but where's the consistency?
I've got no counterpoint, but I had the same realization, and it has made me question not being vegan. I'm like 80% without trying, but also replacing eggs and cheese is difficult
Fuck vegan absolutists, the fact that you're trying is enough
I am firmly of the belief that most of the issues in the meat/dairy industry would be resolved if everyone simply consumed less of them as opposed to becoming vegan. That's how I live my life and I've gotten praises from doctors and nutrition specialists about my diet. Exercise is another thing tho....
Right, that's what I tell people too. I still eat fish on occasion, and if I order food to go and it's accidentally meat, I will eat it to not waste it.
Have had a few relatives look at me blankly, like they've never considered it, when I tell them they don't NEED to be vegetarian but reducing meat/dairy requires little effort. Sometimes they will send me pictures of the reduced meat meals they make now, which I think is so cute haha. Meat even just as a side dish and not the main course goes a long way :)
Me and my partner do this. We often eat vegan food but if we add a bit of cheese it doesn’t matter. We’ve still consumed way less meat and dairy than we would have a few years ago
Animals would still be getting exploited and killed tho
People aren't consuming less, though, they're consuming more. Global meat consumption is still rising. Despite supporting myself on a retail-industry income, I'm still able to be 100% vegan, and support zero animal cruelty.
Less is great. None is best. Your only rationale in your comment for why eating less animal products is better than going completely vegan is... that's the way you live so you want that to be the case?
Me too, but I think we need an actual budget rather than doing it by feeling. The 2t carbon budget is a good start.
Trying is good but very real animals are still suffering for eggs and cheese.
Is it really wrong to think that the right amount of animal cruelty is none?
Reducing without a strict diet is much easier for people. Small wins. If you can make a "I only eat meat, what are veggies?" person reduce their meat intake at all, that's a super big win. Changing your entire meal prep is a huge undertaking and most people just won't do it because it's too overwhelming. Reducing meat to a side, and being more mindful? Way easier.
Chickens just lay eggs. It's just a thing they do. The factory chicken farms are fucked and shouldn't exist but ethical eggs are a thing.
They've been bred to lay an extreme amount of unnaturally big eggs.
I think even ethical eggs end up with some amount of suffering or premature death. Like those videos of the baby chicks being ground up.
A large portion of health issues and causes of death chickens face are egg related. Sometimes the eggs get stuck, sometimes they break before being laid and cause an infection, vent prolapse, cancer, etc. That's not to say I don't think we should eat eggs, with a lot of cooking there is just no good substitute, but even the most pampered hen doesn't have it easy.
You can do it :)
It can be scary thinking about it but give it a real try and you'll realize that it's actually much easier than you thought.
I like to get eggs from my neighbors who have backyard chickens if they have extra. I can see them, know they're not in pain, or mass produced :)
Cheese I still have no idea. Their isn't anything easily available, like almond milk for dairy milk. The vegan ones I've tried (years ago) are gross and full of emulsifiers. Always striving/looking though.
There's none, it's based on what society tells you to feel empathy for. Dog eaters and corrida enjoyers are no different from people eating massively produced industrial chicken, they just live in an environment where it is normal to do that.
The base difference is that dogs evolved side by side with our species to develop and return emotional bonding and feedback with humans.
All other animals we managed to domesticate, at best, tolerate us or fear us. Cute little photos of cows and pigs enjoying being hugged and petted are exceptions, not norm.
I've been trying to understand, for years, what happened to turn dogs and cats food in asian countries (beside famines, hence desperation) but every single source I was ever able to find always gets muddled in exotheric notions of ”medicinal" use or some other folklore high tale.
For context: in Vietnam, cat meat is often served as being "little tiger".
To the extent of my knowledge, the rest of the world never needed to wrap an animal in an exotheric tale to declare it as potential food.
lol, that’s every domesticated animal.
I’d rather focus on banning the ones further along on the path to having a conversation with us. Like the damn Octopus
Did the octopus bad mouthed you to deserve your curse?
I often wonder what crossed the mind of the first human that considered an octopus as potential food.
How can you tell this happened more to dogs and cats than any other domestic animal? Many people report farm animals to establish emotional bounding too, typically cows wanting to play and cuddle, way more than the average cat. Cows are also considered sacred by a notable percentage of humanity.
I'm pretty sure there are thousands of other examples of traditions providing tales about why some animal is eaten. One Christian example that comes to me is Easter lamb.
I think your point is still the cultural bias I talked about earlier.
Then let's turn this on another angle: dogs came to be from a predator, and an apex one, capable and willing to prey on our species, unlike all other species we managed to domesticate.
Cats are not even domesticated, for all objective parameters. Cats are still predators, both potential and active. It is not without reason domestic cats are being viewed more and more as destructive for wild species.
I can go out on a leg and speculate these two species became viewed as food wrapped in myths, with tales of obtaining special powers or some other strange purpose besides avoiding death by lack of nourishment.
All other species we managed to tame came froma what are commonly considered prey animals and it was mostly a process of reducing the animals wariness to us.
Cows are considered a representation of one of the many indu gods and have a very unique status as such but are nonetheless still a source of food through the milk they provide.
Your examples are true and valid but I will insist those are exceptions and not norm. I live in a rural area and sheep, goats and cows are part of the landscape. The animals tolerate human presence, often understand it as a source of food and safety, but are wary, suspitious and generally keep their distance. Even pigs, that are considerably more inteligent than all farm animals don't easily mingle with humans. But any dog, even a feral one, will approach us willingly.
A very welcome bonus to my job is going to places where usually other people won't go and often find varying degrees of feral dogs. After the initial suspition, I find myself approached by the animals, observed, sniffed and "bothered" for pets and play. I wish I could do this with other animals but other animals avoid me and do their best to keep me as far away as possible.
Your remark on the lambs. The christian/jewish/islamic carried over the tradition from previous people. Sheep were often offerings towards supernatural entities but started as a resource/food source (wool and milk and finally meat).
This is an interesting angle. Makes me wonder, do we have a moral duty to reciprocate love and loyalty, or the potential for it? And if not, what basis can there be for treatment of human beings?
Interesting question from a chicken.
My concern is not morality and neither is that the issue here.
The animals we call farm animals today came from what are considered prey animals and the process of domestication was essentialy a process of reducing fear and wariness towards our species.
Dogs came to be from an apex predator that, we speculate, found advantageous to actively associate with our species for mutual benefit.
Different origins produced different outcomes.
I think there is a much easier explanation. People keep rabbits and guinea pigs as pets. They are much more of a "prey animal" than a wild hog, for example.
Humans simply find rabbits, dogs and cats more aesthetically pleasing / cute. That's the whole secret to it. Some animals are liked by humans and get a bare minimum of compassion and some don't. And that's the biggest factor in our decision of which animals deserve to rot away in their own filth until slaughtered and which can enter our homes as "entertainers".
Those two species got a "promotion" more recently into the realm of company animals but they started as food, due to being prolific and easy to keep. They are more sustainable as well, as a tangent comment.
We can argue on all fronts. This is speculation, for what it is.
It's purely for a cheap optics win. President Yoon is a fascist incel that has been taking L after L, so he worked to ban dog meat despite almost nobody eating it except the absolute poorest of society. Dog meat isn't a delicacy, it wasn't something people ate because they saw it as high status, it was largely abandoned by an increasingly westernized South Korea, except for those who couldn't afford anything else. Barely anyone was eating it.
Instead, it's virtue signaling by a fascist looking to grab cheap publicity wins rather than actually making good systemic change. Dog meat wasn't an especially pressing concern, it was an almost gone practice out of necessity, coming from food insecurity, especially during and after the Korean War.
TL;DR still a good thing, but ultimately just a publicity stunt to distract from the fascist President Yoon butchering the economy and targeting women, minorities, and disabled people.
don't forget that india cow is sacred, so it's even worse for them seeing us eating cows than us seeing others eating dogs
They eat horse in Korea, too. It's just not as widespread as dog, so no ban yet.
Horse is also eaten in most of europe and asia and there is much less taboo about it than dog meat.
I agree. The only counter I can think of is that for thousands of years most dogs have been bred as companions or workers. To me it feels like a violation of some ancient pact to slaughter them. I doubt this has much merit. Just a feeling I get.
Yes this is a magical thinking cope to handle the cognitive dissonance
I mean "ancient pact"? really?
Hey what can I say im not sure how else to descibe it. Its just a vibe. I understand that sparing one intelligent animal over another is completely arbitrary. I'm not trying to reconcile some dissonance either. I've eaten whale and horse in the past, and if I got really hungry Fido might end up on the menu too.
Why does it need to be consistent? I think it's fine to say I'm emotionally attached to this animal but not that one.
We domesticated a highly emotionally intelligent animal. Who cares if there's "consistency", if they were killed to make it consistent it wouldn't be better.
I think he's arguing that if that's better, then why not ban everything else? Cows are domesticated and just as emotionally intelligent as a dog.
Cows were domesticated for the explicit purpose of being livestock, not companions. I do think they are intelligent, but I don't believe their emotional intelligence is higher than that of a dog. Dogs literally evolved(bred) eyebrows to facially emote. Having been around cows, and known many farmers with cows and dogs, their emotional intelligence isn't as apparent. I am not trying to say cows don't deserve compassion and rights, and frankly eating them is definitely immoral to some degree (yet I still do it). If we were feeding our livestock food scraps and not this corn eco-nightmare and humanely slaughtering, I dont think it would be. But dogs aren't livestock and are clearly very social animals akin to our similarly protected animals like dolphins, whales, cats, etc. We make excuses for some cultures who are actually dependent on whales/seals etc because of actual longstanding tradition, sustainable harvesting practices, and somewhat humane (or at least no different from a predator/prey in nature), but we don't need to make the same excuse for an industrial society not dependent on dogs and filled with nonsense about dog and cat meat's healing properties
I guess for me, whatever difference in emotional intelligence a whale, dog, or cat has from a cow just isn't enough to categorize them differently. For me it's splitting hairs. I suspect it's a symptom of working backwards to a solution from a problem. As a society we don't like killing these animals. Why? Because we live more closely with them / enjoy their personality. Let's call them emotionally intelligent and ban the consumption of meat from these types of animals.
Seems like an arbitrary definition arising out of an emotional response.
All this being said, I still eat meat. But I forced myself to come to terms with this, with as little guilt as possible. That helps me reduce and avoid my meat intake and support more alternative forms of protein. Something I think everybody could benefit from.
It's not the emotional intelligence alone. It's the result of dogs being bred for cohabitation/work, while the cow was livestock, which includes em int. It's not splitting hairs, it's genetics and evolution fueled by deliberate breeding.
Ask the people of SK, who no longer eat dog, why they see a difference.
How is it odd? Dogs have been pets for like 15k years. The other animals have been specifically bred to eat.