this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023
137 points (95.4% liked)
Games
16956 readers
266 users here now
Video game news oriented community. No NanoUFO is not a bot :)
Posts.
- News oriented content (general reviews, previews or retrospectives allowed).
- Broad discussion posts (preferably not only about a specific game).
- No humor/memes etc..
- No affiliate links
- No advertising.
- No clickbait, editorialized, sensational titles. State the game in question in the title. No all caps.
- No self promotion.
- No duplicate posts, newer post will be deleted unless there is more discussion in one of the posts.
- No politics.
Comments.
- No personal attacks.
- Obey instance rules.
- No low effort comments(one or two words, emoji etc..)
- Please use spoiler tags for spoilers.
My goal is just to have a community where people can go and see what new game news is out for the day and comment on it.
Other communities:
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You know what? Valve gets a pass here. They tried really hard to make Mac gaming a viable thing and it just didn’t work out.
They tried but I wouldn't describe it as trying hard.
Steam client is still Intel only and runs via emulation on ARM Macs. They didn't bother to update their games with 64-bit binaries so most of their catalogue stopped working years ago. Their only remaining "modern" game, Dota2, keeps going because it's the only game to make that jump.
They're not referring to any recent efforts. Valve's push for gaming on mac happened years back, before the ARM transition was even a rumor. And even then, it was apple that stopped trying first, before valve did.
Valve DID try, but you're referring to things from AFTER they decided to cut their losses. Of course it's lackluster.
Did Valve do anything after initial Steam and Source game ports? Steam client is in dire condition since forever and it's been years since Catalina dropped support for 32-bit. If they provided 64-bit binaries their games would still be running through Rosetta2 on ARM Macs.
It's also reasonable to expect that at least Steam client would get ARM update 3 years after first M1 Macs even if they didn't support their games anymore since Valve makes money predominantly on their cut of sales.
Sales of what ARM games? Apple only just released a bodged together "porting" toolkit and still expects devs to put in the legwork.
Proton was originally intended to run on MacOS, too, but that was dropped as the workload was never gonna end. Apple pulling the rug out on stuff like openGL, and making it clear that vulcan on Mac was never happening.
Not sure what you're getting at, there are Mac games released all the time on Steam and Valve keeps getting their cut. The bare minimum anyone expects is that Steam itself gets ported to ARM because it's a web browser and those do horrendously when ran through Rosetta.
ARM Macs can still play 64-bit Intel games of which there is significant back catalogue and new games are released with ARM binaries even on Steam.
The point is that apple is expecting a chicken to hatch out of an egg that doesn't exist.
Devs will use Metal and apples other proprietary systems on mobile, because a gaming market that has passed critical mass already exists there.
Apple is expecting devs to be willing to do the same on desktop and laptop, before the gaming market for those platforms have hit critical mass. Yes, there are "some" games, but right now, apple simply isn't doing what's necessary for it to take off for real. Devs, gamers, and Valve, know that.
Valve was willing to put in the resources back when apple was doing the same, but they stopped long ago and have only been doing the bare minimum of lip service, since. So, Valve packed up, and became re-focused on linux instead.
I'm expecting Valve to keep Steam operational since I own plenty of Mac games there. Valve doesn't require anything from Apple to deliver a working storefront.
So you're expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Valve has clearly decided, that it's not worth the effort. Apple is hostile to developers and creates extra work because it wants all things to go through their systems.
And I agree. That apples actions make the correct business decision for valve to screw over a minority of users like you, is on valve, but also apple. That Valve needs nothing from apple to run on their systems is a patently stupid claim. Yes, they can make the changes necessary to get the client running a little better. But why would they? The whole gaming ecosystem is doomed if apples non-existent support for it fails to improve.
The difference on platforms like linux, is that valve has joined as a contributor for the whole ecosystem, when they need changes in the OS itself, they themselves can make them. And on windows the graphics pipeline, DirectX, is already industry standard, and the OS ALSO still supports all older versions, AND openGL and Vulcan, too.
Gaming on mac, is dead right now.
Yes, that's where 30% cut should go.
I'm not the guy you are replying to, but that is just not how the world works.
According to steam's own survey (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam?platform=combined) osx (aka mac) users make up a whopping 1.4% of steam's players. Now the question is: is it worth it to put in the work for mac? (work which i might add only works on mac as the apis that work on linux and windows do NOT work properly on mac)
Valve's answer is no. Put simply even though they take 30%, its very clear that mac users do not make up a huge enough user base to put in the work. In other words the costs of mac development might exceed the income they'd get from max players (but this is just speculation, the point is, its very that Valve thinks its not profitable to develop for mac)
Why put in the work for linux then you might ask? Well linux uses the same APIs in most cases as windows (Vulkan, OpenGL, and in case of directx, vulkan can "emulate" directx), so its a lot less work to be compatible with linux than it is with mac. Also Valve owns a console which uses linux as an os, so they do not have to rely on propriatary windows.
Anyway my point is development costs are probably higher than the income they get from mac players.
Not to mention that osX users likely buy a lot fewer games.
Meanwhile linux is exploding, I've bought more games to play on steamdeck than my dad ever did to play on his mac.
This discussion started with Valve supposedly making an effort to support Macs. For quite some time now I was speaking about Steam itself. It works but is so shit it's no wonder they're bleeding users before they even buy or launch a game.
If you take 30% of sales it's reasonable to expect you're going to support your platform for a reasonable amount of time. We are still talking about staggering amounts of money even if it's 1.4% user base that probably doesn't purchase as much as Windows users.
With what we know about how Valve is being run internally it's likely that it's just not fun anymore and less profitable than alternatives. Incidentally, this leads to a very Google-like behavior which back in the day led me to drop Android for iOS, which in turn led to getting a Mac.
That's unfortunately not how re-investing incoming money works.
Gaming on Linux only has a future because Valve used "windows money" to bring it alive.
Gaming on Mac, right now, has no prospects. And as it's proprietary, the only corporation that can really change that, is apple. There is no reason to spend on it. Is that fair? No. Small minorities of users get screwed all the time.
And apple is just as quilty of business decisions that screw a few users by taking things in a direction that's better for the company and the majority of its customers.
You don't need to explain why companies do things but if we're here it's worth noting that some companies will burn money to project stability, long term support and to keep options open. They might have some issues but will bank on being a known quality.
Valve is still entirely at mercy of Microsoft which is why they prop up Linux, not because they're nice or very profitable there. That means they could do a rug-pull the moment it becomes inconvenient. Linux has no stable APIs either and it doesn't even attempt ABI stability. Linux support hinges on Proton which left unsupported would deteriorate quickly and with no native versions (which are a pain because API/ABI issues mentioned) it could get where Mac is currently rather quickly.
Apple does weird things constantly but other than insistence on Metal (which can be worked around with MoltenVK which Dota2 does) it sounds that Valve thinks their effort, while profitable, is better spent on things that are more profitable. Fair game to them but as a consumer I will voice my grievances.
And as a reminder, my whole point is that it can't be said that Valve made an effort - it was a one time thing that was quickly left to rot.
Good.
But it does seem I DO need to tell you how Linux works.
Linux runs the world. To say it's unstable is like saying wood is unstable. You can use it to create any conceivable system, because you don't need to rely on others to change it. Being a "woodworker" is enough. To achieve the things that can be achieved with Linux using osX or Windows, you need to convince their respective wardens to go poking in their code to make the changes you need.
Linux is the definition of stable, because you can grab its entire code-base and just use it for a given need, forever. You can still rely on ten-year-old software if you have to, you can still run deprecated code, and you can apply security patches without losing access to old features. What the hell do you mean by by unstable APIs? If your services need a certain version of something, you just use that. That's not wise of course, but if all you're doing is running an old game via openGL, that's fine.
The same goes for proton. Once a game works, that's locked in. They only way that will ever break is if any part of the system is updated in a way that makes using an older version of it, impossible. The list of games that proton can run is growing like a compatibility list for a console emulator, once it's at 100%, only new games will ever make it go down.
I don't care if a company "projects stability". Real stability is hardware that doesn't rely on a corporate computer network to begin with. Games that run regardless of whether steam is installed, phones that work without an account and cloud agnostic software systems like Nextcloud, Collabora, Matrix. LIKE LEMMY FFS!
And Linux is the only OS level software which has that same kind of immortal stability. Code that will still be there, that will still run, and will still be getting worked on by someone, decades from now. To call Linux unstable, is the most incorrect thing I have ever read. Open source development is a ratcheting mechanism that only goes forward. You can't uncreate FOSS applications, but proprietary systems die all the time, only for more code that does the same thing to be written within a new context, where FOSS systems just use the same code next time.
If someone needs a piece of code, it's either already been written, or will be written. If it's already written, it can simply be used. That's Linux.
For as long as it has users, FOSS code almost always also has developers. Only proprietary systems can go "out of date" due to a lack of updates despite having users.
It seems to me like you are lamenting exactly the types of things, I run AWAY from companies like apple to avoid, yet you attack the very alternatives that could solve those things, and went into the walled garden willingly, expecting to be cared for.
And no, Valve isn't one of those alternatives. They are a corporation same as any other, but one that happens to be contributing to the solution right now, rather than the problem.
I ran Linux on desktop for 10 years. I run a Linux home server. You aren't explaining anything, you're throwing slogans at me. I'm talking about ABI stability and you talk about uptime and recompiling entire OS. Which will eventually break ABI and therefore all proprietary software like video games.
Well, I was hoping to communicate an idea, calling my attempt a collection of slogans is technically accurate... If a little dismissive of the point they try to make.
There is no reason you'd need to include breaking changes in the OS build, if your purpose is to run games. You'd simply create whatever environment that game needed to work.
That a lot of them depend on a lot of other proprietary things not having their plugs pulled in the future, is a part of the problem and legitimate concern, but beside the point.
I'm not talking about uptime, more like continuity. About developing on and for a system that will still be around decades from now, and still be able to do the things you need it to do. Linux, being FOSS, is the only OS that has any chance at that kind of immortality. That's what I mean by stability. Not even just compatibility, but capability and longevity.
If you want to run openGL on a modern mac, you simply can't anymore. Windows does a lot better, but it's becoming a proprietary dinosaur so full of convoluted code microsoft itself is failing to keep it wholly modern.
That a bunch of translation systems are needed is fine, once they exists, they exist. As long as they aren't proprietary they can continue be applied wherever needed, and improved when possible.
I approve of valve ditching the proprietary world for the potential to make a lasting contribution to the kind of systems that get passed on, and not kept back because the license was private.