this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023
257 points (93.6% liked)

World News

39110 readers
2384 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (5 children)

There is no surrendering here. You’re talking about a region where these “two” peoples have been fighting for three thousand years. If they were capable of sharing or conceding, they might have found a way to manage in the last couple millennia.

Israel feel like it’s their rightful land, which can be up for debate depending on who you are, but Muslims in the area also feel that it is their rightful land. Israel refuses to share the land, but then can you blame them when the Muslims (particularly Hamas) have a goal of eradicating them. I’m black and that’s much like asking me to “just get along” with the Nazis next door who constantly advocate for the US to be a white ethnostate. On the flip side of that, is it fair for me to completely segregate anyone who doesn’t look like me or worship like me just because there’s an amount of “them” who might be Nazis?

There’s a way that they could both live in the land, but it’s going to take a major change in leadership (seriously, why is Netanyahu still there?) and a change in the minds for “both” sides that accepts that either they share or they’ll both be destroyed in the end.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

No, until the rise of the modern Zionist movement, there wasn't a lot of sectarian conflict. (Well, since the Crusades.) There are Palestinian Jews(and Christians) that were living in British Palestine. 1927 coin in English, Arabic, and Hebrew https://www.etsy.com/listing/1538377183/1927-and-1942-palestine-2-mils-israel?gpla=1&gao=1&=&utm_custom1=_k_c2d52efd97041940710b4bded98150ab_k_&utm_custom2=319339185&msclkid=c2d52efd97041940710b4bded98150ab

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

The way that most civilized nations have multiple peoples living under the same nation is a clear seperation of church and state. What Muslim is going to live under Jewish rule? What Jew is going to live under Muslim rule? Or even if the split the land down the middle and run each side independently, there is still the threat of conflict.

Theoretically they should be able to live under one nation as long as the state passes no laws that prohibit religious freedom. Works for the rest of the world.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The region was nowhere near this unstable until this century. This started with the partition of the Ottoman Empire and the gift of Palestine to the political zionists.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I actually largely agree with you, including the fact that Netanyahu is a turd, but I think you are wrong that there is a way for these two states to live on the same land.

The end-point that most experts say is inevitable is a two-state solution with both sides agreeing on the others' right to exist. So, how do we get there? Well, why did Germany and Japan surrender at the end of WW2 rather than continue to fight forever? What would recreate the conditions that allowed WW2 to end?

At the end of the day, Israelis and Palestinians need two things: first, they both need somewhere viable to live under their own government, and second, they both need to be so sick of war that they are willing to compromise. Neither side is anywhere near that point.

Some people just reflexively say no to war, no matter what. However, since you brought it up, the black experience in the US is actually appropriate to raise. The US did, in fact, fight a civil war to end slavery, and it was the most intense conflict the US has ever fought. Without protracted suffering, I do not believe that Israel or Palestine will summon up the willpower to choose better leaders and compromise. Do you disagree?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Could you give me a source on your assertion of a two state solution? I’ve very rarely seen any actual geopolitical experts suggest it. It almost always comes from the Israelis. Palestinians by and large are adamant that there needs to be a single state. I mean, of course they are. How would some embassies help anything.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

One might argue that WW2 might have not happened if Germany was treated better after the Versailles treaty.

So you can't really expect a reconciliation while you treat your neighbour like in an open air prison.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago

Oh they absolutely will both experience extreme suffering as this drags on and on.

I think the likely conclusion is that the US will unfortunately put troops on the ground and settle it; maybe just temporarily.

But you’re very right that they all need to be sick of war, and I don’t think that either “side” is there yet because it hasn’t really been a full-scale war since the 1940s.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago

I think you have your sides mixed up there