News
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
view the rest of the comments
It's not Gnostic. That was a misinterpretation of the text for about 50 years after it was discovered which finally started to fall apart with Michael Allen Williams' Rethinking Gnosticism in the late 90s.
As a result, the tautological dating of anything with a whiff of ideas considered Gnostic was also revisited, and the core of Thomas probably dates to the first century.
Personally I think there's an excellent case for that core predating Paul's first letter to Corinth even, and suspect it may even be Papias' lost logia Gospel of Matthew. I'd guess the association with Thomas was a second century addition after the Gospel of John given the two times he is mentioned in the work are both associated with secrecy, which is internally conflicting with saying 33 as well as all the other sayings referring to two ears.
It almost certainly predates canonical Matthew and likely Luke-Acts as well given the nuances to some of the shared material.
While it is a short work, I think it's probably one of the most incredible surviving texts from antiquity, though I agree that it's fairly obtuse without the proper context.
The biggest "ah ha" in my researching it was realizing that it seems to have significant familiarity with Leucretius's De Rerum Natura, a link that's even more explicit in the records of its followers in Pseudo-Hippolytus's Refutations V.
So when you look at a line like this:
It's useful to know that 50 years before Jesus was born a very popular work in the Roman empire was saying this:
De Rerum Natura was the only surviving book from antiquity explicitly describing ideas ranging from survival of the fittest to a relationship between uncertainty of quantized matter and free will. And the Gospel of Thomas is the only theological text in Christianity (or as far as I know outside of it in antiquity either) that was building on top of those ideas.
It can be read in an hour, but even after over four years now of it being my main research focus, I'm still surprised and impressed by what that short little document yields.
And yes, Paul thought the world would soon be ending. But the perspective in Thomas was that it already had long ago, which may give a bit more context for the comments in 2 Timothy 2:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Paul in Galatians is writing such a similar phrasing before the other was composed. He had a habit of overlapping with Thomas, and in a few of those cases explicitly mentioned he was citing something else.
What a minute this isn't fair. You can't introduce original research and get on my case that I don't subscribe to your theory. The consensus is that it is Gnostic. I see your argument that the consensus might be wrong but you can't just assert that I am wrong. I do see your point that since it is so context independent people must have known the context and at the same time lacking other features of the myth hints that it predates the myth. So yeah it could be pre-Mark but that you can't just assert that.
I don't know if I agree that Paul used it since that breaks the traditional timeline of his conversion within 2-3 years of the crucification and it isn't likely that someone could have written it during the ministry. The overlap could easily be that they were both using the same source.
This is all besides that point. Christianity doesn't consider this canon so it doesn't get to be used in an argument about what Christianity is about.
The consensus is not that it's Gnostic and hasn't been for nearly two decades now. Here is Princeton's Elaine Pagels (author of Gnostic Gospels) on the topic in a recent email debate:
It used to be what scholars thought, but it's one of the big recent instances in Biblical scholarship of "oops, our bad" and is now definitely an obsolete position, particularly by anyone specializing in Gnostic studies.
As for Paul's use of it, I'm not saying he was reading it prior to his conversion, simply that he's likely read it or become familiar with it by the time he's writing 1 Cor given the overlaps, which given their nuances indicate that the core text was present in Corinth when he's writing to them. I suspect it is the "other gospel/other version of Jesus" he's chiding them for accepting in 2 Cor 11, as well as what was behind the schism in Corinth that 1 Clement was written in response to. So it's not necessarily influencing Paul 2-3 years after the crucifixion, but more around 50 CE shortly before he's writing those letters.
And there's unique sayings or context in Thomas that fit parts going back all the way to the time of a historical Jesus.
For example, saying 81 doesn't only parallel 1 Cor 4:8, it especially fits Pilate's time because it was then that Tiberius, who inherited the throne, had abandoned ruling to party but didn't relinquish the position to someone else. So "let someone who has become wealthy reign, and one who has power relinquish it" sounds a lot like a critique of dynastic rule and a call for Tiberius to pass the torch to someone that will do the job. It also sounds like the kind of thing that might have gotten someone killed by the Roman state.
Or the context of Leucretius as a foundation, present across Thomas, happens to fit one of the most well known parables. Look at Leucretius's language in describing failed biological reproduction:
The book elsewhere explicitly described the idea that only what survived to reproduce would multiply.
So you have the sower parable about randomly scattered seed that fails to reproduce when it falls by the wayside of a path, and only what successfully reproduces multiples. The Naassenes, following Thomas, claimed this parable was referring to the scattering of seeds like indivisible points that make up all things (almost verbatim Lucretius's "seeds of things"). In Thomas, it immediately followed two sayings about how no matter if lion ate man or man ate lion humans would be the eventual result, and that the human being was like a large fish selected from smaller fish.
Yet in canon the saying is given a secret explanation about proselytizing. One that in Mark clumsily interpolates into a public speech at the shore (you'll notice they never return to the shore after 4:20, but are back there in 4:35-36).
So one version of the tradition around what's regarded as one of the most likely sayings to go back to a historical Jesus effectively has Jesus citing Leucretius's metaphor in describing survival of the fittest, and the only other version from antiquity is instead saying that he explained this public saying in secret (at odds with John 18:20's "I said nothing in secret") and it was about proselytizing.
In parallel to this, you can see that Paul is first talking about sown seeds in relation to human bodies in 1 Cor 15:35-49 where he also discussed a first and second Adam (a core aspect of the later Naassenes' beliefs), but then switched to discussing sown seeds in relation to proselytizing and collections in 2 Cor 9:6-10. (Here's a paper exploring Epicurean influence on the opposition to the physical resurrection in 1 Cor 15, btw.)
Is all of Thomas dating early? No - there's even evidence that parts of Thomas post-date other parts of it, such as 110 combining the adjacent 80 and 81. But there's a case that parts of it go back much further than most people might think (in part because of terrible scholarship for about 50 years leading to misinformation regarding it).
Look I fully admit I am not prepared to argue about it's dating. I have a copy of the Gnostic texts and it has it in it and I have only read it a few times, not studied like you have. There is no way I can even respond to this other than point out that it is not part of the bible and thus really not part of Christianity. You can argue that it should have but that decision is about 17 centuries too late.
My only real questions are how do you explain that it was in Greek and that Paul doesn't mention it given this revised timeline. You point out the allusions but not a citation. Core Paul got his information from talking to people if he is to believed.
Good luck on your thesis defense, not like you will need it. This is way above and beyond what I expected to read today.