this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2023
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I got into an argument with a guy on Reddit because he kept insisting that Taiwan was a sovereign nation and I kept telling him that Taiwan does not view Taiwan as a sovereign nation. At one point he asked me if we sold weapons to China and when I said definitionally yes he lost his shit.
Taiwan #1
The DPP (pro-Independence party) polling seems to differ a bit from National Chengchi University's yearly poll where "maintain status quo indefinitely/decide later" were the two most popular selections.
me deciding what I'm going to do today
I agree the polling is a bit different, I don't think it contradicts the DPP study though. Setting aside the question of national identity (not addressed in the NCU study) vs national policy goals, NCU went 32/28/21 for status quo maintain/decide later/move toward independence. 1.6 wanted status quo + move toward unification. 21 > 1.6. Thanks for providing further evidence!
If you're only looking at the "immediate action" options it's 4.5% independence vs 1.6% unification
Grouping the camps together, the graph shows 25% vs 8% currently while not too long ago in 2018 it was 20% vs 16%. It's a contentious issue, and opinions wax and wane depending on the diplomatic situation with the only consistency being that the majority of people favor maintaining the status quo. However, I think as more of the older generations die off, much like in South Korea, identification with a cross-border national project will likely diminish.
70% of US adults believe in angels, but that doesn't make it true. No countries with any actual amount of power on the global stage recognize the ROC (see the US' One China Policy), which means that regardless of whatever views people claim to have when surveyed, Taiwan is de facto part of the PRC.
de facto huh. What does that mean in practice?
Taiwan is completely economically dependent on the Mainland and is recognized by an ever shrinking pool of nations?
How do you go from there - economic dependence and decreasing recognition - to not being self sovereign? They run a government and have elections. As another hexbear pointed out
This is without contending your points about their economic situation and degree to which the mainland coerces the language of the relationship held between Taiwan and other nations.
At a basic level, to be a sovereign country is for the people of that country to have the ability to determine their own collective destiny. Now, sovereignty is not a simple binary but a scale since powerful countries have the potential for greater influence than smaller countries who must fight against the influence of larger countries.
Vietnam has sovereignty. It has an independent military that is battle-tested through winning numerous wars against its neighbors and the US, it has a seat within the UN where it can lobby its interest before a global body of nations, it has international treaties with numerous countries and is free to sign more or back away from treaties if it's in its geopolitical interests, it is part of many international organizations like ASEAN, and it has an extremely savvy ruling party who knows how to play off the blocs against each other for Vietnam's benefit. It's even taking steps to be completely food independent so they won't get fucked over by sanctions and climate change. The only real mark against their sovereignty is the PRC (and ROC) presence in the SCS.
Taiwan, in contrast, has little to no sovereignty. Its military is completely dependent on the US. If it wasn't for the 7th Fleet constantly bailing out Taiwan, Taiwan would've long since been reunited with the Mainland. It has no seat in the UN. A grand total of 12 UN states, many of them Pacific islands that Taiwan constantly bribes for their continued recognition, plus Vatican City recognizes Taiwan. Because Taiwan is not a UN state, it cannot belong to a lot of organizations. Just a few days ago, Taiwan got expelled from the Central American Parliament. The Central American Parliament isn't some hugely important organization and that's part of the point. Taiwan has already been shut out of important organizations like the UN and the WHO and now they're even being shut out of even less important ones. Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics under the humiliating title "Chinese Taipei" and instead of boycotting the Olympics, they choose to compete with that humiliating title, further cementing their inability to move beyond what the PRC and the rest of the world has placed them in. Neither the KMT and nor the DPP are pursuing policies that would bolster Taiwan's little sovereignty, with the KMT thinking if they can kiss the PRC ass enough times, the PRC won't invade Taiwan and with the DPP thinking if they can lick Uncle Sam's boots enough times, the US would save Taiwan and not abandon them like the US did with Afghanistan. Taiwan is also overly dependent on trade with the PRC and in general, Taiwan's economy is intertwined with the PRC, meaning if the PRC does shit like temporary ban some Taiwanese imports, the entire economy feels the strain.
This is a country that's economically dependent on one country and militarily dependent on another country. This is not a sovereign country. This is a pawn that's being played by two countries that are belligerent with each other.
I commend you for recognizing to dispute the sovereignty of Taiwan it helps to start with a definition. Unfortunately for you the definition you provided is vague and at ends with more formal definitions. I’ll reference you to the indisputable democratic source of knowledge wikipedia (feel free to edit the page if you it can be improved):
The PRC and the USA do not pass and enforce laws in Taiwan. The Taiwan government, elected by the people of Taiwan does. They are self sovereign.
You’ve brought a lot of good points which I ought to go through in detail, but briefly: Vietnam great analysis but different country. Military - is Japan sovereign based on reliance on US? Are there only a handful of actually sovereign states (the superpowes) in your schema? Regarding not provoking PRC no shit they don’t want to get slaughtered. As has been pointed out they have organizations and relationships that are de facto diplomatic if they are not called that because of the gun to their head.
Curious, what’s your stance on Palestine’s sovereignty? I think they can be considered sovereign, I don’t see that spectre of other powers potential influence as taking that away. I don’t see why all you guys need to make the bar seem so high, if you individualize it this much the word changes its meaning. A nation doesn’t need to be uncontested among all other nations to be sovereign. If its not the Taiwan government who is sovereign there? Your position would require there be an “unsovereign” condition, unless you actually believe its the PRC sovereign there. Unless its contested within the borders I don’t see how you could make the argument a nation is unsoverneign.
In practice, Taiwan is not internationally recognized as a country. It doesn't get to participate in many important international bodies like the UN or WHO, for instance. I get your implied point that this doesn't mean much because it really only matters on the diplomatic level, and true enough a lot of that works out to semantics, such as their having "Economic, Trade, and Cultural Offices" instead of formal embassies despite them doing largely the same thing.
I appreciate this last comment in contrast to the former which glibly compares 24 million peoples national identity beliefs to religious views. Belief in a national identity manifests the identity whereas the other are supernatural sky fairies.
Not sure what the dispute is then. As things stand, a much more powerful nation uses its influence to deny another representation on a world stage. That doesn't make them "not a country." They rule within their borders and those that live there by and large consider themselves Taiwanese. The OP I replied to was denying this, I think you and I made good points that they are self sovereign.
The dispute at this point is over how we define a country, especially because Taiwan clearly falls in a grey area within that definition. I claim that they are fundamentally unable to exercise their sovereignty given they aren't formally recognized as a country by even their greatest allies and benefactors, thus they fail. You claim that they can fulfill the roles of the state, have a national identity, and have various semantic work-arounds for that fundamental illegitimacy, thus they pass. There's also the question of the legitimacy of their founding, with me saying that the ROC was originally an oppressive colonial military dictatorship, but then you would say that it's been long enough and their government has changed enough that it doesn't matter, then we bicker over what constitutes a democracy.
Ultimately the argument would continue indefinitely and I don't think there's much chance either of us would be convinced by the other.
As an aside, the point of the prior comment was that surveys of beliefs can very easily be detached from reality, and so aren't good evidence for claims.
It's still a nation-state. It's fully independent and autonomous from China in every sense of the meaning.
Whether other countries recognize your seat at the UN is functionally irrelevant.
Except no country or international institution would agree with your criteria for a nation-state since that definition also gives legitimacy and sovereignty to lovely people like ISIS when they administered a huge chunk of Iraq or any number of autonomous or semi-autonomous breakaway regions that the international community consistently refuses to acknowledge as sovereign states.
You sorta have to win the war to declare independence.
Change the question to: “would you die for Taiwanese independence?” And watch the numbers drop.
So mainland China is not independent then?
They have the mainland and everyone recognizes them as China.
Sounds independent to me. Forget your pedantic nonsense.
As does Taiwan to me, and right back at you comrade.
So the “nation” that doesn’t even consider itself independent sounds independent to you?
And I’m the one being pedantic?
Sorry to say but independence isn’t a vibe.
It’s not a vibe based analysis.
How does it not consider itself independent?
@[email protected] was not actually claiming that China is not independent. They are trying prove that Taiwan is independent through reductio ad absurdium. Basically, they try to derive something absurd (in this case China not being independent) from your claims.
Thus “pedantic nonsense”
You can’t prove independence through logical contradiction. It’s a state of foreign recognition. China clearly won the war enough to be recognized. Taiwan did not.
Independence isn’t a vibe.
Why would anyone want to die for a mere label of "independence"? Most Taiwanese people just want to enjoy the practically independent status quo.
For context: the DPP is the pro-indpendence ultranationalist party founded by local landed elites who collaborated with the Japanese empire during wwii. To this day many Taiwanese ultranationalists around the DPP deny Japanese atrocities such as Nanjing and Unit 731. This may not be the most reliable source, three pinocchios!
Anyone who says they support the DPP is openly saying they support fascists.
I don't support the DPP, but they are far from being fascists.
Interesting that you choose to present a 10 year old poll conducted by the pro-independence party instead of easily accessible recent polls conducted by well regarded Taiwanese universities.
I guess those other cherries just didn't look as ripe, eh?
From 2023
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4782886
Taiwan does not view itself as a soverign nation, but for most practical purposes it is one. Also, I don't think "definitionally" is a word.
Edit: Apparently "definitionally" is a word. I stand corrected.
Being a sovereign nation is when you don't have a seat in the UN and most sovereign nations refuse to recognize you as an independent nation.
I really don't think this is the view people on the left should hold. Someone could say the same thing about many nations or groups that don't have a seat in the UN and aren't recognised but are still supported by communists and anarchists.
Whether a nation or people is sovereign or not is a statement of reality, and part of sovereignty is whether other sovereign countries are able to vouch for your sovereignty. Just formally acknowledging your sovereignty like having an embassy is the bare minimum, but there's more like defense treaties, economic deals, and joining organizations. At the end of the day, there will be other countries and entities that will seek to challenge and destroy a country's sovereignty and unless you have a fleet of Gundams, you'll need other countries to rush to your defense when it's challenged. Nobody can do it alone.
If you're talking about cases like the ROC being in the UN instead of the PRC even though the PRC is de facto far larger than the ROC, remember that the UN isn't an immutable organization. There's nothing stopping the ROC from denouncing the UN as a sham organization after getting kicked out and starting their own rival organization called the League of United Nations or something and getting other countries to cosign to this new organization. There's nothing stopping the ROC from campaigning their allies (ie the West and various Western vassals) to leave the UN and join the LUN. But for obvious reasons, a LUN would never happen because the ROC doesn't have many allies. Most countries, including its so-called allies, see Taiwan as a US unsinkable aircraft carrier that'll inevitably be reunited with the Mainland, whether peacefully or by force, or be completely destroyed in the process of a US-China war.
Agreed.
Do you know what a sovereign nation is? Whether a state has a seat in the UN is not an indicator of sovereignty. By the way, do you know why the ROC does not have a seat in the UN? The old China, ROC, quitted preemptively so as to not get kicked out by the new China, PRC. By your logic, evidently, a nation can decide whether another nation is sovereign.
Wait, they took their ball and went home and you're defending that as a show of legitimacy?
Taiwan is currently a Chinese settler colonial regime that functions as an American military base and microchip factory. If they want sovereignty, they should give the land back to the natives they stole it from and return the billions of dollars worth of gold and artifacts they looted from the Qing coffers after they (catastrophically) lost the easiest civil war in history.
The ideological makeup of Taiwan has nothing to do with whether or not they are entitled to sovereignty from a diplomatic perspective. International relations isn't about right and wrong. In fact, the KMT and CPC are in agreement in maintaining the status quo - the KMT and the CPC work together to oppose any attempts at renouncing claims to mainland China by Taiwan and formally becoming the Republic of Taiwan.
Give the land back to the natives? And how exactly would that be done? Handing the government over to them? I would say that 99% of the natives would not want that. The government of Taiwan is already doing enough to make up for the horrible deeds done: the natives enjoy a ×1.35 boost on exams, their statuses and cultures are protected legally, and the government is also pushing natives to learn their native languages.
Is it really that wrong for a government to loot things from its land? In any case, they are also taking good care of the artifacts and opening them up to visitors who wish to see them. The civil war was not that easy either.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/definitionally
You think one thing, the dictionary says another.