SEE SECOND EDIT DOWN BELOW
Lets not beat around the bush here, lots of people like to look at boobs and dicks.
Lemmynsfw was looking like a good place to go, but reading the "Loli" announcement thread where they equate drawn child porn to petite women, its clear the owner is not the right person to be hosting a NSFW instance for the majority of people.
Is there anywhere else that people can recommend?
There is undoubtably a need for such an instance. Can we discuss this like adults?
edit: UPDATE
Take this update as you will
I'm taking it as a backtrack, but it's still not an instance I want to associate with.
Lots of people keen to offer their opinion of drawn picture of naked kids, haven't seen any alternatives though
Edit 2: At this point I think their updated rules are good. It took a bit to get there, but in the end they appear to be taking a hard stance. Hopefully this is enforced.
I dont think it was a case of "whoops bad English" like they are suggesting, I think it was a total 180 backflip. This doesnt really instill confidence in the admins IMO, but im happy that they have made the right decision in regards to allowed content. Hopefully this is was just some early wobblies and the community can move on.
I want kbin to be known as a network that is neutral and federates with all other instances, allowing users to decide what they wish to see. the second something is defederated/blocked, it becomes a slippery slope of crying to block this or that, and taking away power from the users.
There has to be a line though.
I saw this person defending exploding-heads (Nazi instance) earlier so I imagine the line looks much different for them than for you.
It's sad to see that there are people who see thing as all or nothing. Life requires nuance and every situation needs to be analyzed and treated differently otherwise we end up with blanket policies that are ineffective and even punish those it seeks to protect. Free speech is great but it ends when it becomes a detriment to society or in this case a vulnerable group. I don't have kids and don't care to be around them but the idea that someone would find sexual gratification from the image of a child-like body is abhorrent. Also it's a good indication that these people themselves experienced childhood sexual assault and that needs to be dealt with in a healthy manner, not by normalizing the act.
This is not a situation that requires nuance.
Who is being put out by rules that disallow this content?
IMO, unless it's explicitly illegal, people should be free to share/say/discuss it. let people decide what they wish to see on their own and curate their own experience.
I believe illustrated child porn is illegal here in Canada, as well as other countries (not going to google it though). Seems like it isn't in the US? I find it kind of shocking that so many people don't see an issue with it, tbh.
Because here in the US marrying off children is normal.
loli/shota aren't "illustrated child porn".
Its not an issue for those you can seperate what they think is ok from what they think should be allowable due to peoples personal freedom. A drawing is a creation of an artist from some sort of media. When its created, no one gets hurt. When its consumed, no one gets hurt. Will I be a consumer. Nope but I also believe in legalization of prositution without planning to go to one. I was for marijuana legalization and have never used it. Rights are not just about what I think is fine.
And which legal system would we be using here?
server host's laws. the goal being to avoid legal takedowns. I'm a free speech maximalist. The only thing that should ever be taken down IMO is nonconsensual nsfw photos/videos. So cp, revenge porn, deepfakes, etc. along with literal off-topic spam (spammy affiliate links).
Well, what if do want that? What should be of my sever that is set up in a country where said content was legal? I'm well aware I'm making more of a hypothetical statement here, but I believe that kinda stuff doesn't really have a place being blatantly public to everyone by default. I can empathize with free speech but I do believe there needs to be at least some sort of soft barriers.
Also, "avoiding legal takedowns" is kinda sus. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it but it really isn't a strong opener when talking about porn.
If you wish to see such content and such content is legal in your area, then you should be free to have an instance that does that. Personally I would support defederating from such a service. These are not merely a preference of content, but rather things that have actual harm to actual people.
"federated" and "public to everyone by default" are two entirely different things. I agree, that nsfw content of any kind shouldn't be public front page "to everyone by default". That doesn't mean we should defederate from nsfw instances.
Keep in mind that legality of nsfw content varies wildly per region. For example, japan explicitly bans any nsfw materials showing genitals that are not blurred/pixelated. So if a server is hosted in japan, then it's expected that that sort of content (uncensored genitals) would be banned/defederated in order to stay compliant with the laws of the region. Similarly, a server hosted in the middle east might be expected to ban/defederate from instances home to imagery of muhammad, or of nsfw lgbt content.
Agreed. Could you further clarify you stance above then, about kbin being federated all other instances?
Yeah, I'm pretty new here it probably shows. I'm aware it isn't exactly like that and I didn't know at the moment (and still don't) how to put my thoughts into words.
I can appreciate avoiding the law for what could be described as "socially just" reasons. I just think that opening with that may unintentionally include harmful subjects, such as the ones you have listed above.
Sure. I'm speaking in terms of content, culture, beliefs. by default, kbin should not defederate. Defederation is a severe action that should only be taken in extreme circumstances, such as extremely illegal things, or those which can directly lead to harm. For example, I'd be okay with defederating from an instance that's used to organize human trafficking. In an ideal I think that ultimately speech harms no one. drawings harm no one, and should be allowed in all cases; but it's understandable that such things may be illegal (in which case defederation is obviously needed to comply with law). In certain situations platforms may/can be used to cause real world harm, such as nonconsensual pornography, human trafficking, etc. in these cases, defederating I'd support to reduce the harm done to the real people effected. These aren't a matter of "oh no they offended me" but rather "perpetuating this content actively harms the subject".
Loli/Shota drawn artwork are drawings first and foremost, let's not forget that. They do not harm anyone and cannot harm anyone. In this sense, they should be allowed unless the law dictates otherwise.
When I say "kbin should be federated with all other instance" I mean: if I'm on kbin and wish to see certain content, or talk with certain people, I shouldn't have to worry about admins being offended or disgusted by such topics. The case of nonconsensual pornography is not a topic or genre it is not a form of speech it's a violation of consent. You can get identical content with proper consent. In that regard, cutting off such instances does not prevent people from enjoying the content they wish and speaking to those they wish.
In practice, ethics and morality can often clash with the law. For instance, I think piracy is morally right and just, yet it is obviously illegal. In this case, while I would appreciate and support federation with instances that allow blatant piracy, it's understandable why defederation might be needed in that case. Similarly the reverse is true, some blatantly heinous content may be legal in certain areas (such as the scenario presented about nonconsensual pornography), in this case I do support going further than the law to protect the victims.
There's a difference between discussing murder, and planning murder. There's a difference between enjoying fictional murder scenarios, and allowing the sharing of photographs of your murder victims. Hopefully you can understand this?
I think each person should be allowed to choose what that line is for them, and not have that line chosen for them.
Disclaimer: I was a victim of child SA, I do not support or condone SA. But I DO support pedophiles who have never and will never act on their desires having a SAFE NONVIOLENT FICTIONAL outlet for their perverted fantasies, if anything so they don't take that shit out on innocent children.
A friend (therapist) of mine worked with pedophiles and the story they told them is that consuming that content leads to more and more desire to actual assault a child.
I'm no expert in that field, but I personally would rather see such content banned and people that look for it to be served ads that help them.
Yes. This is exactly like study after study about violence in video games. Consumption of violent content in video games leads to more and more desire to actually be violent to people.
Eh, I get the principle, and we should definitely be less trigger-happy about defederating than beehaw, but if a server starts tolerating a bunch of drawn CP, we should probably just defederate. That being said, it seems like lemmynsfw is prohibiting it, so I say we keep federating with them unless it becomes clear they won't actually enforce that rule.
No reason to cut ourselves off from half the nsfw communities on the fediverse unless we have to.