this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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You know what I hate about this? In the past, you could very easily vote with your wallet by spending it on organic food, instead of this poison laden crap.
But these days, food is so expensive that very few have that option, so we pay a premium to these companies who really don't give a damn about us, the planet, or biodiversity.
You know what I hate about this? Somewhere someone is getting paid to allow the ag industry to slide on requirements, with the end result of people being poisoned. And we have zero say or representation.
The only say we have anymore is to do something about it.
Then they call those people eco-terrorists.
Well in the land of the fee, you might have about 50 000 say in total to be divided up to what you need (a bunch of that going straight to your landlord or mortgage company anyway), while big agriculture firms have 10 000 000s of say dedicated to the policy initiatives they want.
That's a really long way to call me poor π
Well done. π
Also there are plenty of organic pesticides fwiw
Yes, if they are even used. Many organic farms don't use anything and/or use considerably less toxic versions to control pests.
When i was able to afford organic produce on a regular basis , i was getting them from a place that sourced from local farms, and none used pesticides at the time. Sure, you find the occasional bug in your lettuce here and there, but nothing that a good wash couldn't fix. π
Local farmers, sure. But from what I know, industrial farmers all use pesticides unless if it's grown indoors. And a lot of the organic pesticides are more dangerous than artificial ones. Especially since the farmers need to use more.
I don't believe they are more dangerous, unless the research found otherwise in the last 10 years.
But i cant speak to the industrial side of things, since i was buying local.
I don't remember which one, but I have read about two different organic pesticides that were particularly dangerous. One had high mercury levels, and the other had something about it that made it illegal to use outright in the EU, but was legally used in the US.
It's been a while since I heard about this sort of stuff, as organic was only starting to become mainstream when I had originally heard about them.
So like 30 years? Organic stuff was getting popular in the late eighties. Maybe it's time to brush up again lol
About ten I think. Organic was still pretty niche before then, and only really started to come to mainstream about then, not just foodies and environmentalists.
Yes, I'm sure when the organic biz started to get mainstream attention, there were either some bad actors trying to make a quick buck, or simply not enough data into what was being used, so it wouldn't surprise me if that happened back then.
But honestly, as long as there are billions to be made, someone will be trying to fly under the radar by using highly toxic stuff which may produce a higher yielding crop. This could be especially true when you have big corporations buying up smaller (and previously ethical ones) to become a monopoly in the space. God knows what deals they make behind closed doors.
@Dearche @Showroom7561
Indoor produce can be worse because of the use of fungicides.
Possibly. But indoor produce is less likely to use any sort of pesticide or fungicide, as they are lightly sealed environments.
I won't say zero, as of course fungi are much harder to keep outside compared to insects, but indoor farms are quite controlled to maximize production. I imagine that fungal infections are much likely to occur for most produce, with only some specific ones being particularly vulnerable depending on the location.
@Dearche
I've worked in greenhouses, growing seedlings for tree planting, vegetables and flowers. We used fungicide almost all of the time.
Insecticide was rarely used.
But glysophates were never used as that's a herbicide. The most common one is Bayer-Monsanto's Round-Up and used on 98% of GMO crops in Canada.
Bayer-Monsanto has been working hard to keep it on the market (even tho New Brunswick has been finding evidence that it may be the cause of an illness killing people there).
It seems like you can still vote with your wallet. It just takes harder voting.
The dose makes the poison. They're taking a science-based process to update the maximum residue limit.
Significantly more land would have to be allocated to agriculture to produce the same amount of food without pesticides. That's not good for the planet or biodiversity.
Yeah but what if by increasing its usage, it means that you get more into the underground water supply and you end up with elevated concentration in drinking water because of this?
If it's dangerous then obviously stop doing it. But use science to test your hypothesis
It is pretty well understood at this point that a significant portion of pesticide runs off into our environment. It is reasonable to assume that an increase in usage will increase runoff and therefore increase risks of contamination.
Don't assume, test the hypothesis. Why are you so against using the scientific method?
I'm honestly pretty shocked at how anti science this thread is. Wanting proof that something is safe or unsafe shouldn't be a controversial position.
Bro we're not going to run off into a field with equipment and test this ourselves.
There has been many studies on the subject, done by scientists, with reports, that have been published. Some of which have been reported in the news and that also influenced Europe into taking the decision to stop using glyphosate and to reduce the usage of pesticides in general.
I've read many news articles on the subject over time and I know enough to know that we need to decrease our usage and use natural alternatives where possible because it has long term effects on our environment affecting drinking water, pollination insects such as bees, and can cause cancer in humans and animals.
Stop telling people to use the scientific method and science like we're going to go out there and run experiments on our own like we have time to do that in our busy lives and we're all environmental or chemical scientists. We're not. We keep ourselves informed through the reports that have already been published as journalists who investigate into these things.
Why are you so pro pesticides? It's not rocket surgery to connect these chemicals to various health and ecological issues today, some of which can take years to underatand/surface. This is clearly legislation designed for profits over human and environmental health. It is well documented and reaearched that many pesticides have serious health hazards, its kind of part of their job. "Science based apporach" is the media/governments term asking you not to question their decisions.
I'm not pro pesticides. I'm pro environment and this is a complex situation where we should use systems thinking. Pesticides increase crop yields which means less land needs to be used for agriculture. Less land used for agriculture means less deforestation which mitigates climate change. There is obviously a balance here, too many pesticides will have negative affects on the local environment and humans but too few pesticides will also have negative affects on the environment (and by proxy humans). Determining an accurate safe maximum residue limit helps farmers safely maximize crop yields. The dose makes the poison is the basic principle of toxicology. These limits aren't being determined by politicians or companies, they're being determined by Health Canada. It is difficult to be a corrupt scientist in Health Canada so I don't believe the scientists involved in this system will have perverse incentives. I'm not pro pesticides, I'm pro environment.
cc: /u/[email protected]
Are you sure?
You must be aware of the way lobbying works.
I don't believe in conspiracy theories. Unless there is some evidence of corruption within Health Canada I believe that the scientists are working independently.
Lobbying is very well regulate in Canada, as it should be. In Canada, we have the lobbying act which has broader definitions of lobbyists than the US. Every interactions including details between a lobbyist and a politician is reported to the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying of Canada. You can request access to this data.
Again, I don't believe in conspiracy theories. Canada has well established and trustworthy institutions. We are lucky enough to live in a country where most people can't name a single Supreme Court justice. This isn't the US, we have our own problems to solve, stop importing problems from down south.
What conspiracy? The article clearly states that Syngenta requested the increase in MRL for fludioxonil. We don't even need to reach for the lobbying registry to get that information. On the question of independence of scientists, what does Health Canada do in this context? Conduct their own human toxicity studies on the new MRL? As far as I know the manufacturer is responsible to do that and government bodies such as Health Canada review that data. Unless there's something that appears to cause harm after the fact which necessitates independent study. Unless I'm totally wrong about this and Health Canada does independent studies on these compounds, we have a manufacturer creating the product, the safety studies around it and government agencies just review and approve or deny its use based on those studies. This is just business as usual, no conspiracies involved, and no independent science on Health Canada's part. Unless you count reviewing the manufacturer studies as science, which technically is science, except there are obvious pitfalls with it.
When Syngenta is involved, I'm extremely skeptical that the process is scientific or rather that the variables optimized for are people's or the environment's health. The dose isn't an on/off switch, it isn't boolean. Given Syngenta's track record, I'm guessing that they're optimizing for how much they can sell before the damage is apparent to most. I do believe they're scientifically establishing these amounts.
Stop saying βscience-based process,β Greg.
βSafe Food Matters president Mary Lou McDonald agreed. Accessing the health and safety data the PMRA uses to determine MRLs is challenging due to stringent limits on what data can be seen β and shared β by the public to protect pesticide companies' intellectual property. She noted issues with the accuracy and relevance of the data used by the government in its assessment process.
Moreover, she noted the PMRA and pesticide manufacturers have a close working relationship β an issue also flagged by Lanphear.β
The term "science-based process" is directly from the "Government of Canada moves forward on commitments to strengthen the pesticide review process" press release. I don't believe in anti-science conspiracy theories. If there are issues with the data being used to make these decisions then that should be addressed but there is no evidence of that. You quoted the opinion of a trained lawyer from an anti pesticide charity, not a scientist.