this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2024
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As a reminder, ClubsAll is still showing all of Lemmy's content without federating back (clubsall.com)
submitted 5 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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A post from 2 months ago which explained the context: https://lemmy.world/post/20694710

I just had a look, nothing has changed, the website is still using Lemmy's content to pretend to be active

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Hello Blaze,

One request, whenever you post about clubsall, can you please tag me so I can also participate? Thank you.

As for this discussion, when we had a discussion last time on reddit, I thought we agreed that as long as there is not meaningful traffic, it should be ok. I guess you were not fully onboard with this.

My request with all admins is - can we agree on some rules. If we block all new sites on hunch or rules as we make up, it will kill anyone trying to do something new.

There was another thread (that I cannot find now) where some rules were proposed. (If someone can find, please reply to this).

There are 2 things being discussed

  1. federating out
  2. open sourcing clubsall

I can give an update on both of these. As I mentioned previously, someone was helping me in doing some audit, implementing federation and then we could also open source. We were going to use "sublinks", which would do a number of upgrades. So that seems the right choice moving forward. It will allow self hosting, federation, move to postgres, move to docker etc.

However during implementation we found that sublinks itself does not implement federation out. So we were blocked by that. I checked with developer just few days ago and I was told that since all developers are volunteers and they got busy, federation was delayed. The work will pickup again in new year.

I am not sure when they will be able to finish federation. I can quickly move there once done. However that seems months away.

In the meantime, can we have a discussion about a set of rules for clarification and fairness?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago

Let me give you my opinion, specifically as a React developer, if you don't mind.

And let's be clear: I intend this to be a constructive criticism. I hope you understand and don't take it the wrong way.

To be honest, I don't know how good or bad federating one-way is. This is more of a "people" problem rather than a technical problem.

But, to be honest, what I am bothered by, is the fact that the website doesn't give an attribution in the UI about which instance certain users are from and which instance certain certain community are from.

Take a look at this post: https://clubsall.com/posts/theyre-trying-to-charge-luigi-with-terrorism-imagine-that-qfF82

The UI says that the post was posted by u[slash]BytesOnBikes. If I didn't know better, I'd have assumed this was from a user from clubsall. But if you click the username, you realize that the link says u[slash]BytesOnBikes[at]slrpnk.net. I think this would be confusing as a user. What if there is the same user under the username BytesOnBikes from clubsall? At least if you include the instance name, user would know right away that both users are different. But if you didn't include the instance name, I feel like this can be abused to impersonate user. This is a bad thing to happen to your website, don't you agree?

Now that we both understand that lack of attribution is a bad thing to clubsall... What's stopping you from adding an instance name to the username? I'm sure the app has a way to know which instance certain users are from. From what I gather, I feel like this is as easy as appending a string in the code.

I haven't even talked about the community name on the UI. Or the ethicality of misleading attribution.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

One request, whenever you post about clubsall, can you please tag me so I can also participate? Thank you.

Sure, I'll make sure to keep you tagged. I was not sure you were using your Lemmy account, so that's why I did not tag you in this post.

as long as there is not meaningful traffic, it should be ok

You are channeling the traffic from 44k monthly active users to your website without giving credit to the instances where the content is created.

I just checked, the homepage of Clubsall shows content from [email protected], while lemmy.blahaj.zone have you defederated: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, as "clubsall.com" is in the blocked instances.

But if we look at the linked instances, there is now "api.clubsall.com" and "clubsall-api4.renchesterjramos.workers.dev"

@[email protected] FYI

If we block all new sites on hunch or rules as we make up, it will kill anyone trying to do something new.

Everyone here is trying to make a new platform. Every Lemmy server, as well as Mbin or Piefed, federate content both ways, and allow to go to the original posts from the federated copies.

In the meantime, can we have a discussion about a set of rules for clarification and fairness?

Every admin make their own rules. Feel free to convince them, a few of them are in this thread.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I just checked, the homepage of Clubsall shows content from [email protected], while lemmy.blahaj.zone have you defederated: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, as “clubsall.com” is in the blocked instances. But if we look at the linked instances, there is now “api.clubsall.com” and “clubsall-api4.renchesterjramos.workers.dev”

This is because federation is fairly complex and we are new to this and do not fully understand. I really do not know why we are getting content from lemmy.blahaj.zone when they have blocked us. The content is coming from federation, so how is it being pushed to clubsall after blocking?

You are channeling the traffic from 44k monthly active users to your website without giving credit to the instances where the content is created. In our last discussion, you said "your site is small, so people just ignore it. Should it become more active, then users are probably going to call their admins to defederate." ClubsAll has not grown. This time you are saying we are not attributing. It seems even you change mind on to what is fair.

My request stays the same, give us some breathing room until some traffic threshold. Is that fair?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The content is coming from federation, so how is it being pushed to clubsall after blocking?

I blocked your instance based on your domain. But because you are using other domains to pull the content, you're still receiving content from the domains you use that I haven't blocked.

My request stays the same, give us some breathing room until some traffic threshold. Is that fair?

What is your plan for what clubsall will look like? I have no interest in killing a new and interesting platform for building community in the lemmy space. But if you're just going to pull content from lemmy instances without giving anything back, that's not building community...

Tell me you've got plans for something other than a content scraper, and I'll happily work with you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 hours ago (2 children)

Thank you for responding. Here are my plans

  1. After some discussion with another fediverse developer, he recommended we move to sublinks library. I posted our tech plans here https://lemmy.world/comment/12922172. This will achieve a number of things - move db to postgres, deployment to docker/k8s, enable lemmy clients, make some security changes so our passwords are not exposed, this in turn will enable open sourcing and self hosting. This seems the best path forward.
  2. We almost completed the move when we found out that sublinks library itself does not have federation implemented. I was told it will be picked up in 2025 but it is also being developer by volunteers, so the timeline is not certain. Since we almost finished move to sublinks, as soon as they have federation, we should be able to move very quickly since work on our side is mostly done.

There is almost no traffic today, users are not missing out on any content. Since the timelines are not in my hands, my ask is for admins to give me benefit of doubt and be patient until I wait for sublinks federation implementation (or if clubsall have traffic in which case, users will be missing out on content. In that case, I will have to think of something else)

  1. In the long run, idea is to have an simplified fediverse frontend that can realistically be a real open alternative to reddit.

Feel free to ask me anything else.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 24 minutes ago

Thank you for the update. I honestly don't mind if you're not there in terms of federating out yet. As long as the plan for the project is to be generate connectivity/community in some way, we'll be better off for your project being here :)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 hours ago

sublinks library.

Do you mean this? https://github.com/sublinks

There is almost no traffic today, users are not missing out on any content.

If there is almost no traffic today, why do you complain about being defederated?