this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2024
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You can fight the trolley itself instead of justifying supporting genocide.
PS this is the real world not a meme. Political power is not a trolley problem, it is a matter of organization and education. You disempower yourself and others by pretending you can only backseat cheerlead a genocide. Instead of supporting this, go and join an organization that is actually opposing it and start doing work.
In the US, every student is eventually presented with lessons on the Holocaust and asked to think about what they would do. Right now, to be honest, your answer would have to be, "support it using poorly thought out propaganda".
Absolutely. But you should also flip that switch real quick before getting to work fighting it. Just in case.
No, you shouldn't, because this is the real world and not a trolley problem. Providing electoral support to genociders helps to entrench them and these discussions have the wrong framing when it comes to how political power works. I already mentioned this. Did you read my comment?
Yes you absolutely should. If you can effortlessly vote for the lesser evil in a way that doesn't take anything away from the other fight, just do it real quick. Any argument to the contrary is accelerationism.
If you are an accelerationist, then get bent, you're wrong.
Backseat cheerleading genociders, and telling other people to do so, is not helping. It makes you complicit and spreads a false and anemic idea of how political power works. You should be fighting them, not doing mental gymnastics for how you can still justify supporting genociders.
There is nothing strategic in what you are describing, it is actually self-defeating and this is why you are told this logic from on high.
As I originally said, join an org and fo actual work against genociders. Be part of the solution, not part of the genocide-excusing problem.
There's no mental gymnastics to flipping that switch real quick, then fighting the real fight. It's you who's doing gymnastics trying to wrongly convince folks not to. The length of your post alone proves the gymnastics.
You're using a strained trolley problem analogy.
Anyone fighting the real fight has already been fighting and knows that your vote shaming for genociders is counterproductive.
How am I wrong?
My post was not long lol. Though most of it was me repeating myself because your response didn't address what I said. Same for this last response, too!
You are entirely missing pragmatism my friend. It's tragically important.
Your approach is not pragmatic, it is just what you have been told to do by your masters. It does nothing but entrench the genocuders and ensure that they will never have to think about you electorally. It's a self-defeat.
I speak in terms of building leverage and organizations.
Though really, the issue here seems to be that you refuse to engage with what I say.
No, you are ignoring 90% of what I say so that I have to repeat myself because you say things I've already contradicted. I assume this is a defensive reaction to having your genocide support called out.
If I was any of those things you could run circles around me and tackle my arguments. Instead you are avoiding and ignoring nearly everything I say. In contrast, I have addressed basically everything you have said, despite those behaviors.
You are now defensively lashing out rather than address what I said.
It's the opposite if engaging, it is playing with imaginary BS to continue lashing out rather than address what was said.
Your support for genociders is not strategic and you do not sound like someone that is actually doing anything else. You sound like someone that really wants to vote for those genociders and then stop thinking about it.
Say it then. Do you want Kamala or Trump to be president?
you: "Yes you absolutely should tacitly support genocide. If you don't tacitly support genocide then you're an accelerationist."
There are other candidates you can vote for that are vastly lesser evils than both the fascist democrats and fascist republicans; candidates who are not actively funding and perpetrating genocide but actually, get this, opposing it. If instead of voting for one of those, you still choose to support a party committing genocide, you aren't just an accelerationist and wrong, you're fucking despicable, evil.
False. It's too late. We're a month away from the election. Vote Kamala, the lesser evil, then join the Bernie campaign or the DSA to make some real change over the next 4 years. Now is pragmatically not the time for such battles. Know when to fold em.
"Now is not the time to oppose genocide."
Your reprehensibility is confirmed. History will look upon people like you as on those who supported Nazis but pretended the concentration camps were just a bit much.
Bad faith actor here. Mark this username.
Very long way of saying you're looking forward to trump being in power again and forever taking away your right to vote.
Very short way of saying you will never lift a finger other than to vote even if Trump takes away your right to vote.
My comment already contradicts your response, even with its inventions. Please try to address what I say rather than making things up.
You said to Organize and admit a genocide is occurring, while not letting yourself be convinced that voting is the only course of action.
I'm saying that's awesome but what do we do when trump gets elected because no one wants to vote now?
Of course voting is not the only course of action. Voting is incredibly little. What, you check a box? Maybe wait a few hours at most to get into a pilling station? Dear God.
This is an incredibly limited amount of political action, particularly given the way in which box checking translates into any political action (electoral college, media monopolies, biased education, wage slavery limiting political education, campaigns built on donations from capital).
You actually do political work. You become educated and join an organization that does more than act as a sheepdog that turns alienatuon into genocide votes.
And in the end Trump wins the vote and you lose your oppurtunity to do any real politcal work! Congrats.
Trump was already president once and my political work was actually easier because liberals were outraged and could not understand the complicoty of their representatives. Their representatives merely reflect the cynical apathy of their position that is shielded when they are in power.
If Trump were an existential threat would you just be sitting around posting bad logic? You know he is just an incremental partial detriment in some ways and some vague miasma in other ways. Biden is, for example, a much more coherent genocidal Zionist, as is Harris.
Rather than quibble about how to appease one's inner Eichmann, why not fight against it?
Besides the token joke that Biden isn't a "more coherent" anything, I think Trump would be equal in this respect (not worse, but equal). He doesn't have the same developed reasons as Biden, but America's zionist project has deliberately allowed for zionist organizations like AIPAC to buy out politicians and send lobbyists to him, and Trump will definitely follow the directions of the overwhelming majority of his allies if they are given to him consistently. He didn't understand imperialism well enough to understand why military spending on South Korea made sense, but they simply don't have much sway to anyone in America except a tiny minority. Israel -- because of conditions the American imperial machine created and maintains for the purpose -- does have that sway
Hope you can look trans and queer people in the eye and tell them their genocide will be worth it in the end because you'll stop all genocides. You know, after they're dead and gone.
This is the most nothing-burger reply. Queer people are among the most vocally supportive of moving outside the bounds of electoralism because the DNC does not protect them.
Hey, as a trans person involved in a socialist org, get involved in a socialist org instead of arguing for your own catharsis.
Trans genocide is happening in plenty of states even with a democrat in charge, democrats will not prevent trans genocide on a long term basis.
Hey look you did the meme of this post.
I organize with trans communists all the time and materially support trans spaces. There is no lack of trans people that oppose both capitalist parties. But more importantly, if you are to avoid tokenizing people, you must have an actual analysis for liberation and not a monolithic "this is what trans people want" stereotyping. The latter is always incorrect and never actually happens because trans people are not a monolith. The former just means you understand this and know which trans people you disagree with. For example, I disagree with assimilationists that support genocidal Democrats and try to pretend liberation comes at the expense of others.
Just openly admitting you support genocide. Disgusting. And don't even pretend you care about anyone represented in the bottom half of the image; if Democrats said murdering trans folks was necessary to beat Trump, you'd support that too.
If Democrats said murdering trans folks was necessary to beat Trump that means the overton window is too far gone and I'd be looking to ship as many trans folks out of the country as I could manage with my means. If and when it reaches that point, US democracy would be too far gone to even consider saving it. I don't believe it is right now, as flawed as it is currently. Which is why engaging in harm reduction is still worth it.
So you believe murdering Palestinians is okay, then, if we aren't "too far gone" yet.
Maybe if any of you harm reducing fools grew a backbone and had some principles on who you'll vote for we wouldn't have to think about when that will happen in the US. Watching the Dems slide further and further right while saying they're better than Republicans is not helping anyone, especially future Americans
Time to sieze the trolley and build new tracks.
Fun fact: The United States actually has more than 2 parties
The More You Know
This message brought to you by Jill Stein who pops up every four years to grift money and accomplish nothing except cozying up to Putin. I guess there is still the brain worm dead animal guy?
Third parties in the US are unserious. I wish that weren't the case but that's the reality.
Let's steel man your argument and say you're 100% correct. Throwing away your vote or not voting is still morally better than voting for someone who won't commit to not enabling a genocide.
And that's assuming your predicate is correct, which it's not.
Oh, please tell me which third party candidate not only has a real shot at this election but is also not just a far-right grifter in disguise.
Pretty much all but the libertarian party. Turns out if enough people vote for a candidate they get elected. Weird huh?
A more accurate picture would have all of the people on the republican track on the democrat track too, just covered with a tarp to conceal their real aims.
Also, tha US flag shouldn't be on either track since neither of the two right wings of the capitalist party would dare throw away the empire that furthers their and their masters' (the capitalist class) interests.
I have a plan, hear me out,
The US rn:
Real life.
Is not.
A fucking.
Trolley problem.
You are actually allowed to break the car and turn off the power.