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this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2024
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It's easy to rage against the machine on a moral pedestal. It's harder to actually steer the machine in the right direction.
To be clear, I am supportive of putting things to a vote even if there's no chance it succeeds. Get the votes on record. I think that's an important archive that can be used later in election season to hold politicians accountable for their votes.
I like what Bernie and AOC are doing when they push for these kinds of votes.
But make no mistake. They can only do this from a position of being unable to effect any change. Under normal conditions, moves like this poison the well and make others on both sides less willing to work with you.
They have the luxury of grandstanding specifically because they have zero hope of garnering support.
Someone like a president can't really do something like this without completely burning their political capital.
If only we had a president who is never going to hold office again and has nothing to lose right now... Damn our current pres is nothing like that
You realize his actions have a direct impact on Harris' campaign... right?
You realise Biden's current stance on Israel is unpopular by a vast majority of the Democratic voter base, right?
I couldn't find much, but this poll seems to suggest the majority supports the US position on Israel. It's surprisingly bipartisan.
Do you have another source maybe? This poll is from June, maybe you found something more recent?
That poll isn't about any specific policy
Polls:
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Nice finds!
That poll is about opinions on the US's role, and says nothing about Israel.
It's an absolutely bonkers result considering the US's decades of destabilizing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets in other countries like Yemen and Syria, alliance/support of terrorist states like Saudi Arabia and Israel, and imperial/extractive attitude that has been the primary force destabilizing the region in my lifetime.
The idea that ANYONE can look at the middle east and have a positive view of America's role is disgusting. America's disastrous 21st century foreign policy is the primary reason that the entire world has become so destabilized. America is a terrorist state and the US military machine is the single biggest threat to human survival. Stopping the US at all costs is the most important thing that we can do to protect the biological experiment of the current ecosystem upon which we depend.
The only reason I am considering voting for Trump in the fall (compared to the handful of reasons why I am considering Harris) is that four more years of chaos may finally destroy the American War Machine and the disaster that is American foreign policy.
Four more years of Trump directly puts my life in danger, but if it leads to this country self-destructing I'm personally willing to make that sacrifice. Anything to cripple our criminal war machine. What good are our rights and liberties if the depend on a war machine that is willing to risk the habitability of our planet? If America collapses, with it will fall the major fuel of the arms race. If the leopards have to eat my face for my country to finally get put in its place, I'll proudly try to pet the kitty.
Ideally, I want America to be a functional democracy that respects and promotes civil rights and liberties around the globe. I have never had the option to vote for such an America. In my lifetime I have never seen America take actions that imply that these are the values of our government. The options are to vote for the competent criminal who will directly and purposefully undermine the habitability of our planet, or the incompetent one who may cause more damage in the short-term due to his bumbling but may be better in the long run by removing America's destructive influence on the world's stage as we turn inwards to fight a civil war. Maybe a civil war will cause us to reassert what we claim are our values, and I'll finally live in a country I can respect,
I'm pretty genuinely torn in this election, because I'm willing to sacrifice my personal safety for what I see as a net positive in the world in the long run. I'd rather be hopeful that we have a path to fix America. I'd rather be hopeful that America could be a country that promotes democracy and civil liberties. America as it stands is not a democracy, and we have no liberty. America is dead. Do we keep voting for the parasites, or do we vote for the incinerator to protect others?
It's a poll about the US role in the ME w.r.t. Israel, the rest of the poll's questions were also about Israel, this was just the question that I figured best represents how people feel about Biden's handling of it so far.
Are you sure about that? Last time Trump was president we got Russia gearing up for an invasion of Ukraine and China posturing regarding an invasion of Taiwan as well. Neither of these conflicts have been or would be beneficial to humanity as a whole. It's destroyed the ecosystem in Ukraine for example.
And suppose Trump does turn isolationist instead of going to war with Iran like he's been trying to do. Do you think the resulting power vacuum will lead American voters to believe that going isolationist was beneficial? We saw the opposite in 2020 happen, where people wanted the US to return to the world stage by electing Biden.
Have you considered that you might end up on the losing side? Republicans have always been war hawks. Them fully cementing their power through Trump could very well lead to an even more active US war machine. Trump won't be around forever, he's old and these days the target of assassination attempts.
Accelerationism has been tried in the past. It has never ended well. I urge you to really reflect on what it truly means if your envisioned scenario were to happen. I urge you to reflect on the many, many things that have to happen in order to end up somewhere better. And please, consider what happens if you're wrong about what electing Trump will lead to.
I live in a country that's been under the yolk of another whose population thought like you do, that maybe making things worse will make things better. It led to the worst environmental disaster we've ever known, caused the deaths of millions and led to the birth of the US war machine. The scars are still visible today.
I sympathize with you though. The US is in a shit place electorally speaking. Organizing for electoral reform is probably the best shot at fixing things, but that takes incredible time, effort and money to get through. I can see why that feels hopeless. But personally, I find it a more honorable cause. Endangering yourself and many others is in my opinion deeply irresponsible.
If Harris wins, I'm on the losing side, as is anyone who cares about civil liberties or democracy. Voting for Harris is voting to lose with complacency and voting for a position of despair that lasts four more years.
If Trump wins, I have high confidence that I won't survive the next four years, but at least I'll be going down fighting, and at least there will be some hope that civil liberties and democracy can be restored in the process. Some hope of rebooting America and to create a nation that values democracy. This is a position of hope. I believe in the American people. We are strong. I would rather see those interested in democracy and human rights unite against the tyrannical government instead of acquiescing to tyranny with a rainbow flag on it.
I want to live in a democracy that promotes liberty. Voting one way has no chance of delivering this, but will be comfortable for me as I watch the destruction the planet. Voting the other way opens up a possibility for democracy to win, even if it's slim. This position of hope is what I am interested in. I see no path to democracy or liberty through the democratic party. Harris is only promising to double down on W's policies of American destruction.
I also strongly detest these authoritarian regimes. America's military spending is orders of magnitude larger than theirs, and America is driving the arms race. Reducing the American military will reduce the need for arms for these countries.
Ukraine has only ever been part of the West when the Ashkenazi Jewish glue acting as transliterators were present in the country. Post nazism and post zionism, the people who could keep Ukraine in the west were removed. As long as the Jews are distracted by their genocidal aspirations instead of going home to defend against Russia, Ukraine is a lost cause.
China and Russia both have disastrous policies in central Asia. Ukraine and Taiwan are small fish. Central Asia is the most sensitive ecological and cultural target of Chinese and Russian interference. The US does not care to protect this region because there is no oil. If America were actually providing a challenge to China and Russia where it matters, I might view things differently. I'd love to see a plan to save the Aral sea and central-asian ethnic populations such as the Uyghurs.
I see some contradictory statements here, perhaps you could clarify those for me.
You believe the Democrats to be unwilling to improve on social matters, be it both domestic and foreign, correct? They may state that they hold these beliefs, but you don't expect them to make a meaningful change, which is why you don't see a path to improvement under Harris. I hope I understood you correctly here.
At the same time however, you seem to believe that electing Trump will lead to a civil war. Who exactly do you expect to start said civil war here? It won't be Trump as he's already in power, and it won't be the Democrats either because they don't genuinely believe in liberty/democracy. If they won't even vote for it, how can you expect them to fight for it? I'd argue electing Trump reduces the chance of a civil war, even according to your own logic. And even if a group other than the Democrats were to take up arms, that group would certainly be smaller than a Trump-led government backed by the US army. Trump would win in that case, and any hopes of progress would be dashed completely.
Any side with a shot at winning a civil war would have to be either the Democrats or the Republicans. Since the Democrats wouldn't start a civil war (too spineless), the Republicans have to. And I'd posit to you that the only way they would do so is if Trump loses the election and contests it, riling up his base. We know that his base is radical enough for it (see Jan 6), and Trump is too much of a narcissist to refuse the chance. In this scenario, Biden/Harris would have to use the army to put down the insurrection, and the political momentum from that might give people a shot at improving things in the way you want. Arguably there's historical precedent for this, with Lincoln having the momentum to ban slavery during the civil war.
You also seem to, and I quote "believe in the American people". But that same people makes up the US army, makes up and and supports both political parties and also seems entirely complacent to keep voting for the same two sets of douchebags and not push for electoral reform in any meaningful way. In fact, you don't even seem to think that the Democrats could be pressured into change, not even on the matter of Palestine. Either the Democrats are unwilling to change a position in exchange for power, or said pressure isn't as big as you seem to think it is, and most Americans just don't care enough (which would also put a pretty big dent in the whole "civil war"-plan.
Frankly, it seems to me that the accelerationist civil war strategy makes more sense when you elect Harris. But I'm not sure if it's worth pursuing at all, since I can't think of any historical precedent where this has worked out.
Did I mention social matters? I mention foreign policy pretty exclusively, with a smattering of climate urgency.
I'm pretty sure that's inevitable in 2025 regardless of who wins. If Trump wins, most Americans will be upset and will resist, more strongly than last time. Even if the democratic party doesn't want democracy or liberty, many of the people do.
If Harris and the republicans win, the people who want democracy will be on the side of the broken state, fighting a lost cause. If Trump wins, those people will be fighting against the state to build something new.
I'd rather fight for a better system over defending a broken one. I see war and unrest as inevitable.
I don't think that the system will allow us to change the democratic party, not because the people don't want it, but because the democratic party won't allow it while they are in power. The people are NOT represented by any party or any part of our government.
But what if Trump and pals manage to stabilize their fascist state. You will never have another free election (Putin style instead of the propaganda of billionaires and theocrats). The whole world will be fucked and all on your coin toss.
It is for once too dangerous to leave to chance. You need to get Harris in, and Trump and the corrupt supreme justices in jail. THEN from the ground up build a new political party for the people and the planet.
The whole world is already fucked. Trump taking over will only fuck America faster and give the rest of the world a chance to not get fucked by America.
For your optimistic scenario, do we have the time for all of that? Does the middle east? Does the world? Is that even a possible outcome of all this? Or will it all just blow over and we'll pretend like nothing happened (see four years of Biden) while Harris just doubles down on world annihilation? She's promising to be a republican, I'm just taking her at her word.
Worked out really great in 2016, didn't it? Absolutely brainless take with no basis in reality.
It kind of did!
In 2017, people got mad and started taking action and taking to the streets before complacency set in. This unrest kept ramping up and took another big jump in 2020. What took the wind out of the sails of people taking action and demanding change was Biden getting elected, allowing most people to fall into complacency while Biden did nothing to fix our problems and instead got us involved in multiple overseas conflicts.
With Trump in office, the people resist. That's what happened last time, and the people rising up and finding unity through resistance seems to me the only way to overturn America's broken and indefensible systems. The question is who will be resisting/overthrowing, and what will they institute in their place?
If Harris wins and the Trumpers are overthrowing, the options for outcomes of the ensuing war are the mildly fascist status quo, or the super-fascist usurpers. I don't have high hopes that many people will stand up to fight in this case.
If Trump wins then those who love democracy and liberty and equality will be the ones who rise up and resist, fighting for the best of these options.
As I said in my first post, this is the only reason that I consider Trump. I have a whole handful of reasons to consider Harris.
I kinda remember this pandemic response team we used to have... Good thing we didn't and currently still don't have an ongoing pandemic killing people worldwide!
People resisted and got a corrupt Supreme Court, dismantled consumer, environmental, worker, and abortion protections, an attempted coup, and somehow we all treat Covid like it wasn't fucking Trump's fault.
Shut the actual fuck up, you accelerationist piece of shit. Congratulations on your willingness to sacrifice people who didn't agree to be sacrificed, I'd rather keep more people alive, Anerica and the world got pretty fucked by Trump.
I'm not an accelerationist. I'm a realist.
America is already dead.
A civil war is coming.
2025 will be another 2020 no matter what happens in November.
I don't want the dead weight of a dead government on the side of democracy. I want the side of democracy to be free to invent something new. I don't want a broken down old democracy fighting against a modern authoritarian. I want the authoritarians to be saddled with the complacency and inertia of the state. I don't want the authoritarians to be free to invent something newer and more powerful that can bring our doddering democracy to its knees. Our government is old and has been stripped by Reagan/Bush/Trump. It is a liability to be running it.
People are about to die. A lot of them. I want democracy to have its best chance of coming out on top. That means that the people have to want it.
I'm sorry, you're an accelerationist, this civil war bullshit has been a conservative fantasy for a long time now.
and it's just as idiotic for someone on the left to call for it as it is evil intentions on the right, we have seen this over and over and over again, hell it's part of why every mass murdering movement of fascists and authoritarians came to be in the 20th century, the fucking holocaust literally could not have happened without people like you in the German political sphere
I'm not an accelerationist, and I'm not calling for civil war.
I just see that it's coming.
accept it's not.
I don't know if I can just accept that it's not.
I know a lot of people who will be rightfully outraged if Trump wins. If Trump wins, it will be due to election interference and from stopping people from voting. He may win the electoral college, but is unlikely to win the popular vote. There are many reasons to see a Trump victory as illegitimate. If Trump wins there is a very strong chance of a civil war.
If Harris wins, there may be another Jan 6th-like action. Without Trump leading the MAGA movement, all that organized hate becomes a target for a more competent leader to harness. There is a chance that that might spiral into a larger conflict.
You're a weird American and i say that as a compliment. I hope there are more like you.
Please chose the lesser evil in November.
Thank you, and I plan to.
As I said, I have a handful of strong cases to vote for Harris. I also had this one dissenting voice in me that was screaming to get expressed so I could look back at what I said and analyze it. Thanks for analyzing it with me. Doing this in public and with input from others helps me vet my ideas. I don't have a social network anymore to talk about these things with. So much social cohesion broke down during the Trump years, and it hasn't grown back well at all.
We don't live in a unified country, and we need to be willing to say that we are broken so we can fix ourselves.
Yes and Harris complicity in continuing the genocide in Gaza, the ethnic cleansing in the Westbank and now the invasion of Lebanon will be the greatest risk for her election. But they would rather hand over the US to Trump on a silver plate, than to stop killing Arabs.
I think Russian propaganda will be the greatest threat to her campaign, actually