this post was submitted on 21 Sep 2024
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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

But who exactly would the democrats be accused of shilling for?

Netanyahu. AIPAC bought two candidates right out in the open. The party welcomes foreign interference against progressives.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Israel paid directly for two candidates and committed FARA violations? That's a big claim buddy. Got any... Evidence?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

AIPAC paid to defeat Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush. If you want to believe that AIPAC is actually independent of Israel, I can't make you stop believing absurdities.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I know what AIPAC is. Your claim is that they have direct funding from the government of Israel. That's illegal. You are allowed to set up a lobby group in the US that supports another country as long as the funds are obtained from within the US.

I know this might come as a shock to you, but there are many jews living in the US that happen to support Israel. You are welcome to set up any lobby group you want. Go ahead and set one up for Lebanon. But FARA is very clear about the source of the funds.

If youre not familiar with FARA take some time to acquaint your self? Or talk to a lawyer maybe? I don't know.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Your argument in favor of foreign interests interfering in US elections is essentially "well, it's perfectly legal, and if you don't like it, help another foreign interest interfere in US elections."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Are you doing it on purpose? It seems you're trying really hard. Like really hard.

That's not my argument. I think it's clear to everyone else reading you're doing it on purpose so I'm out. Cheers.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That’s not my argument.

Then what is? It's fine to buy candidates as long as your PAC has the fig leaf of US funding when it operates on behalf of a foreign government? Because that's what happened. Israel didn't like the incumbents. AIPAC spent loads of money on their challengers.

Back in 2022, we were told that when the party propped up the anti-choice, pro-nra, anti-labor Henry Cuellar against his progressive challenger Jessica Cisneros, it absolutely wasn't because he was a centrist and she a progressive. It was that the party protects its incumbents in order to maintain the incumbency advantage and the proven track record for winning.

But we just saw the party do absolutely fucking nothing at all to protect the progressive incumbents Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush, while their opponents took boatloads of cash from AIPAC to sink them.

As far as I'm concerned, the party supports Netanyahu's ongoing genocide, and in exchange AIPAC spends heaps of money in opposition to progressive incumbents that party leadership refuses to protect.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I understand what you're trying to say, but you've mixed in 3 different topics into a blender to build up a narrative. This is literally a gish gallop and it's intentional.

The only thing I pushed back was that AIPAC was taking money directly from Israel and circumventing FARA, which is a common conspiratorial talking point.

Now in addition to addressing FARA, you want to talk about

  • incumbent advantage and popularity of these candidates

  • dems support for genocide,

  • the influence of lobbying in elections.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The only thing I pushed back was that AIPAC was taking money directly from Israel and circumventing FARA, which is a common conspiratorial talking point.

Ok, let's both take a step back here, I ask that you humor me for a moment. Could you please quote where I said that Israel directly funded AIPAC in contravention of FARA? I don't recall making such an assertion, but you seem to be arguing as though I did.

Accusing me of being a conspiracy theorist for noticing that AIPAC spent loads of money to essentially buy candidates is low. Calling it a gish gallop when I expanded on it is lower still.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Netanyahu. AIPAC bought two candidates right out in the open. The party welcomes foreign interference against progressives.

Isn't the implication here that Israel - a foreign entity - is directing an american Lobby directly?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They can do that without so much as a dime of Israeli funds.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I don't know if you are doing it intentionally. The alt right uses AIPAC funded by Israel extremely often as an Anti-semitic talking point and also as a method to minimize any Ukraine involvement. Whether intentional or not, your initial claim insinuated this heavily as if Israel and the deepstate are pulling the strings on our politicians. The reality is there are many Jews living in the US, and those jews are sympathetic to Israel. It also happens that Israel has been a longstanding ally of the US (whether that's ethical or not is a different discussion). If you want to make the claim that AIPAC has influence in politics that's significantly different than a foreign entity crossing FARA and directing US policy. The world is not so black and white.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The alt right uses AIPAC funded by Israel extremely often as an Anti-semitic talking point

You see me say AIPAC and add "funded by Israel" which I never fucking said or even implied. They aren't funded by Israel. You will of course ignore this and keep lying about my position.

and also as a method to minimize any Ukraine involvement.

Dafuq? I didn't even mention Ukraine. For the record, Putin is a dictator who is also committing genocide. I'm glad we're not selling him weapons. It's too bad we're selling any to Netanyahu just so he can murder Palestinians in order to prop up his political career.

Whether intentional or not, your initial claim insinuated this heavily as if Israel and the deepstate are pulling the strings on our politicians.

The deepstate? Dude. AIPAC shoveled tons of money at two centrists right out in the open. There was no secrecy. No attempt at secrecy. Just money for people who do what Netanyahu wants.

If you want to make the claim that AIPAC has influence in politics that’s significantly different than a foreign entity crossing FARA and directing US policy.

You're deliberately and repeatedly lying about my position. I never said that Israel is funding AIPAC. Not fucking once. Nothing you have said during this entire conversation has even approached good faith.

You can't argue against what I've actually said, so you falsely claim I said things I did not say and hold positions I do not hold. You can beat the shit outta the straw effigy you've constructed of me in my absence.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

What does this mean:

The party welcomes foreign interference

Walk us through what you meant to say with that.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I already did. You added things I didn't say to construct a strawman. You and him have fun.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So there is direct foreign interference from Israel violating FARA?

Or is AIPAC an American Lobby group that is sympathetic to Israel?

Which is it?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They use only US funds when they buy politicians on behalf of Netanyahu.

Need some more straw?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Eh, as long as Netanyahu (or any foreign government) isn't instructing them directly on how the funds should be spent it's perfectly legal. Otherwise any lobby group is allowed to lobby on behalf of any interest, including an ally nation. Is it ethical? That's debatable. Is it legal? Yes, as long as FARA is not being violated.

You're welcome to start your own lobby group, Ensign.

For what it's worth, I'm not down voting you.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago

Eh, as long as Netanyahu (or any foreign government) isn’t instructing them directly on how the funds should be spent it’s perfectly legal.

And it's really difficult to prove such a thing, and there's virtually no interest in pursuing it.

Otherwise any lobby group is allowed to lobby on behalf of any interest, including an ally nation

And I consider that to be foreign interference in US elections. Of course it's legal. Lots of shitty things are legal.

You’re welcome to start your own lobby group, Ensign.

And we're back to "just start your own group to interfere with elections!" I want less interference, not more.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 months ago

I can't

That's really all you have to say. We know you can't back up your claims with evidence already.