this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2024

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235

How serious are you guys when you talk about punching nazis? (lemmy.world)

submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I have been seeing plenty of guillhotine and mollotov jokes here, and as the title says, punching nazis.

I've been reading a book about nonviolence and anarchism, and he basically shows how we shouldn't use violence, even in extreme cases (like neo nazis).

The main argument is that the means dictates the ends, so if we want a non violent (and non opressing) society, punching people won't help.

And if it is just a joke, you should probably know that some people have been jailed for decades because of jokes like these (see: avoiding the fbi, second chapter of the book above).

Obviously im up for debate, or else I wouldn't make this post. And yes, I do stand for nonviolence.

(english is not my first language, im sorry if I made errors, or wansn't clear.)

(if this is not pertinent, I can remake this post in c/politics or something)

(the book is The Anarchist Cookbook by Keith McHenry, if you are downloading from the internet, make sure you download it from the correct author, there is another book with the same name.)

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The reason Nazis and the KKK rally is partially the same reason the Westboro Baptist yell incendiary remarks: because it's legal

Cool, shouldn't be.

It gets recorded, then their recruitment surges and that person gets thrown in jail for battery charges while they bait lawsuits for damages. Being taken down physically doesn't do jack shit.

Only because not enough people punch them. The fear that they instill in others should be instilled in them. Every time they say some shit they should be thinking "will this get me punched if i say this right now?" Every time.

Sorry, that's not how it work. Again, review Brandenburg v. Ohio. Someone saying mean things to you that doesn't amount to an imminent violence or a direct threat doesn't warrant punching

I don't care what the law says. It is wrong. "Bury the removeds" is inciting violence. I don't care what a bunch of old fucks in 1969 said. They were wrong. You deserve to be punched if you call a black dude a "dirty removed". If you disagree then we are at an impass. Law isn't morality, it was illegal to take slaves to free states, it was illegal to hide Jews from nazis, it was legal to rape your wife till the 90s, it is illegal to punch bigots that call you a slur, and it's legal to steal someone's home in the west bank. The law is wrong in this case.

The problem is that you're going about fighting fascism the wrong way. If you didn't put the cart before the horse, then it should already be self-evident that fascism is wrong. So this requires going backwards and analyzing why your messaging strategy is failing. Why there is a vector into this radicalization in the first place. Is it genetic predisposition? (hopefully not or at least the bar for evidence is enormous, lest you're a racist yourself). Is it simply a matter of environmental factors from low education to toxic parenting and diminished opportunity? No differently than the inner-city violence to the white Appalachian poverty & crime, this is probably more likely. So instead of going, "hur let's punch nazis!", perhaps we need to assess what are better strategies, from satire & mockery, to actually tackling the key vectors into which a "normie" gets radicalized in the first place. Is this as exciting? No. It's the harder, more constructive work.

Did i ever say we should only punch them? All of the reasons they turn into Nazis need to be addressed, it's social/economic, not genetic.

First it starts with, "punching an Israeli occupier to our land is okay!" and steadily progresses

Actually first it starts with being kicked from their homes and being forced into apartide. Were the slaves who killed their enslavers wrong for doing so?

Congrats, you discovered what feels good isn't necessarily effective in your end goal.

Okay so I shouldn't feed the homeless because the end goal is to fix homelessness and poverty and that requires systemic change? Fixing fascism requires systemic change but in the meantime we need to make them fear spreading their ideas. Fixing homelessness/hunger requires systemic change but in the meantime we should feed the homeless.

I love how this was completely and entirely deflected with a modicum of substance. Once again, proving the point that you're in the "Punch a nazi" thing based on how it feels good to you — not because it actually yields productive results.

You literally said time is better served arguing online lmao. If you would have said canvassing or something (like you did in another comment) I would have agreed with you, but also. You can do both.

That's how THEY would frame it, wrong though it may be. They then justify their actions because of this perceived preemptive intolerance. Naturally it's total bullshit and what they're really fighting for is the maintaining of their historically privileged positions in society. Still, that doesn't change the underlying point I'm making. Both circumstances justify preemptive physical violence via ends-justify-the-means mentality.

Dude they frame it that way anyway so if changes nothing. It doesn't matter. How many of the past few shooters have they accused of being trans based on nothing just so they can frame it like they're fighting for their existence. Like they scream white genocide at every turn they get.

I mean fuck, man, we teach our kids the same shit: That crossing the verbal-physical barrier of aggression is a no-go with your siblings. Now if they throw the actual first physical punch, then sure.

Because kids aren't mature enough to grasp nuance and fully understand when words are violent. And frankly? I'm going to teach my kids that it's okay to punch people that call them or someone else a slur. Maybe not until they're early teens (because again nuance), but it's not okay to call someone a "dirty removed" like the old white fucks (and one old black fuck) who decided your coveted Brandenburg v. Ohio thought. Because unlike them and unlike you I do not tolerate the intolerant

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Only because not enough people punch them. The fear that they instill in others should be instilled in them. Every time they say some shit they should be thinking “will this get me punched if i say this right now?” Every time.

You're probably not familiar with the fact that ProPublica uncovered that right-wing extremist groups both want to incite a race war and they want to see an armed left to both muddy the waters and instigate further violence. They in effect want to bait the left into more preemptive violence because then their BoTh SiDes rhetoric only gets stronger with the apathetic fence sitters.

All this fucking time and all this bluster about punching nazis, and nobody can cite one fucking study or indicator showing that it is actually effective and not incredibly backfiring. You think these fuckers will just sit down quietly? No, they'll increase their recruitment numbers by targeting the likes of the insecure, then point to these videos about showing how these people don't even respect their own laws of their land, so why should they? Then they'll simply continue dehumanizing both you and any other minority group to these gullible suckers, their ranks will rise, and some dipshit will become radicalized and because YOU allegedly punched a nazi, some other dude just went over the breaking-point and decided to shoot up some innocent people. If you're not going to bring sources, then we're all juts speculating and I wager I'm far closer to reality.

Besides, in what realm do you live in that you think you're going to be able to identify nazis outright by obvious tattoos. Yeah, I'm sure you're going to bust into a dive bar in Mississippi and raise hell. The vast majority of these modern nazis have learned that the power of anonymity and blending in is far more useful.

So let's just cut the shit with the IAmVeryBadass punch-a-nazi trope, and sure, you're right... Forget arguing with them online; yes, just cede ground to them — I'm sure that'll do wonders. But hey, yes, go door knocking instead of fist-punching. Whatever is actually productive at preventing fascists from taking over because we sure as shit know there is zero evidence to support preemptive violence against these groups you perceive to be irredeemable nazis.

And if you don't like the laws, then fucking do something and change the laws. But shouting about punching nazis on an online forum is the equivalent of shouting at clouds and pissing in the wind. In a way you prove my point, though: we changed many of those laws. We evolved as a society and we clamped down on a lot of fucked up shit. And despite our grievances today, the reason we're seeing such a backlash from these right-wing extremists is because for the first time in recent history they are actually becoming marginalized from their stranglehold of power from which they once governed behind a thinly-veiled "good Christian" narrative. The rat is backed into the corner and they're lashing out for fear of their diminished position in society. These are growing pains and we're working through them.

But the path to violence will muddy the waters for the dumb fucks in the middle who are so easily duped by their recruitment propaganda in the first place, so naturally you must appeal to the lowest common denominator in society

Okay so I shouldn’t feed the homeless because the end goal is to fix homelessness and poverty and that requires systemic change? Fixing fascism requires systemic change but in the meantime we need to make them fear spreading their ideas. Fixing homelessness/hunger requires systemic change but in the meantime we should feed the homeless.

I'll make a point here to say that I'm not trying to say your feeding the homeless is a bad thing. With respect to addressing symptoms versus root causes, I agree with you. But if feeding the homeless actually led to more homelessness, you wouldn't be doing it, correct? Just as we all thought feeding ducks was so nice but it turns out that's the last thing you're supposed to do. Now this doesn't directly apply to the homeless, but it does directly apply to punching nazis.

Look man, we're all on the same side here generally. I'm not here to defend nazis and I hope you see that. I'm trying to just say to consider an alternative avenue for passion because I don't want you in prison for a felony charge while quite possibly just increasing nazi recruitment when you could've been out doing something far more substantive like door-knocking for Harris instead.

As for teaching kids, I guess to each their own. Words only have power if you give them power. I'm not going to let my kid be baited into felony charges because some dipshit easily baited them into throwing the first punch simply because they said some words that says more about them than it does my kid.

And that's about all I have left in the tank for this conversation. Back to my kids.