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Ukraine is not a democracy. The current government came to power via coup and banned their major opposition party, which was most popular in eastern Ukraine. The people in eastern Ukraine didn't like the direction the government was taking, and had been cut out of the political process, so they rose up and seized control of some regions from the government, which began a civil war. The separatists asked for Russian assistance, and Russia sent troops in.
They aren't fighting because one country has more rights or freedoms or a higher quality of life, they are fighting for the interests of their state. The state's interests are separate and distinct from the people's interests. It would have been better if they had pursued peace rather than lose all the lives they've lost over this, even if it meant territorial concessions. Even if they won, it wouldn't be worth it.
We did more that leave him alone, we joined an alliance and fought alongside him. But NATO's fight against communism wasn't just about countering Stalin. Democratically elected leaders all over the world, from Iran to Guatemala, were forcibly overthrown the moment they tried to do something to help the common people, and were replaced by fascists who hunted down and exterminated leftists of all stripes.
This is the second time you've made that comparison.
As I said before, this comparison has been used in every major conflict the US has been engaged in for the past 70 years, and we can look back at them and see how ridiculous the comparisons were and how unjustified the conflicts were. They said the Vietnamese were like the Nazis, that if we didn't stop them there, they'd take over the world. How'd that play out?
You say that you don't agree with those wars. Alright, but that's very easy to do after the fact. When the US went into Iraq, many Americans were critical of Vietnam, and yet, the war had overwhelming support - just as Vietnam did, at the start. You'd get called a terrorist sympathizer if you opposed it. Then, after the fact, we can look back and see that it was no different, that it was just as unjustified. But it means nothing to say you're "anti-war" if it only applies after the fact, when it's too late to do anything about it, and if the moment our leaders roll out the propaganda machine and tell us "this time, it's different," you just go along with it. At the very least, you should be applying extreme skepticism to everything they say. These aren't just the same types of people who lied us into wars in the Middle East, in many cases, it's the exact same people in the exact same positions. I don't trust them and would never follow them into a war under any circumstances.
lol dude I wasn’t critical after I was always critical. In the UK we had our biggest protest march ever when the Iraq war was about to start. Plenty of people were against it.
I’m just gonna simplify the Ukraine thing. They are a country. Who cares democratic or not although they are they might not be perfect but they are nothing like Russia. But the point is no country has the right to invade their neighbour.
I can’t keep up with too many of these different talking points so I’m just gonna push you on the fact that you don’t see a problem with a sovereign country being invaded.
And I brought up the appeasement because it’s what you’re advocating and it hasn’t worked before and it hasn’t worked now. If appeasement worked then Russia would have stopped after crimea - why didn’t they stop after Crimea
I'll do you the same courtesy of simplifying it down to one point. Even if the war in Ukraine had all the justification in the world, we still can't afford to fight it. The US is spread incredibly thin, trying to exert pressure all over the world all at once while things at home are completely falling apart. It doesn't matter whether something is right or wrong if it is outside of our capabilities.
Aside from the fact that conditions are shit and that's just bad inherently, the longer we go without addressing domestic issues, the stronger the far-right becomes, and that threat is much greater and more existential than any foreign power. The ruling class of the US has been stoking xenophobia to justify military spending, but there is a serious risk that it will spiral beyond their ability to control it. If the US goes full fascist, as we are very much trending towards, then other powers being able to challenge its hegemony will be the only thing holding it back.
Like let’s give you a scenario. Let’s say Mexico were more powerful than the US. Would you be fine with them invading you? No you clearly wouldn’t so why is it fine in Ukraines case?
Let me give you a scenario. What if balloons could sneeze? What then?!?
Yeah so basically you don’t give a shit because Mexico isn’t more powerful than the US.
You’re privileged (feel a little weird saying this about America) to live in the world’s most powerful country. But things change. Look how quickly China has changed. Just in my lifetime they’ve gone from the equivalent of the poorer parts of Africa to having a pretty decent standard of living.
You can’t just isolate yourself and say fuck you, you’re on your own Ukraine, when they get invaded by Russia. I mean you can. But as I say, it won’t stop there. It didn’t stop with Crimea. Appeasement failed.
Your balloons comment just indicates you actually have no credible argument. You know that I’m right. Just admit at least that you’re selfish and care only about yourself.
That Russia can invade the whole of Europe if they want to do, kill as many people as they want, just so long as they don’t attack the US.
That’s basically your argument isn’t it? At least be honest about it and we can just conclude that you’re not a very good person but at least you’re honest.
My balloons comment was meant to demonstrate that your hypothetical bore no relation to reality. You can construct an entirely different scenario where such and such action is justified, but if it diverges too much from reality it's meaningless. You are asking me to imagine a world where Mexico is more powerful than the US, before even getting into the conflict, that world diverges so much from ours that I'd have to completely reevaluate tons of stuff.
Russia has no intention of invading the whole of Europe. The question is whether US interventionist policy does more good or ill. And I have completely soured on it following the whole, "20 year long war of aggression that achieved nothing" thing. It's not about "America first," it's about containing the damage that we do to the rest of the world.
Also you aren’t saying it out loud in an obvious way. But you are clearly admiring Trump. Who the fuck would admire Trump!? You’re the sort of person who would look past all the rape allegations his other trials and convictions and still say something positive about him. You’re clearly a republican who doesn’t give a shit about others life’s. Just like with gun control and republicans - “it’s a fact of life that school shootings will happen” no it’s fucking not. They don’t happen anywhere else (or not on anything remotely close to the scale of the US) so of course we can solve that problem
What on earth are you talking about? Fuck Trump.
Lol. If you like, I could cite some of Lenin's work that's relevant to the topic.