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‘I’m not sure Israel is a democratic state any more’: Yair Golan’s mission to save his country
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2024
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In the modern sense, I think most people would take the word "democracy" to include universal suffrage - at a minimum, all adults born or granted citizenship there should have the equal right to vote for it to be considered a democracy.
In practice, Israel has substantial control over the entire region from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, between Egypt and Lebanon (that is not to say that they should, just the reality) - in the sense that anyone in that area's lives are significantly controlled by Israeli government decisions, and the Israeli government and military operates over that entire area.
So the minimum bar for it being a democracy is that adults - including the people with ancestral ties to the area that it controls - get an equal say in the governance. That is clearly not the case, and has not been for quite some time; it not being a democracy is not a recent development (maybe it's never actually been a true democracy).
Thank you for taking the time to say it all out. I saw this headline and my reaction was: who’s going to tell him: it never was one!
After a year and a half of the Cahanist Messianic fascists take over the government, it's misleading to say "Israel was never a democracy". It would be more accurate to say that within Israel's Democratic governments, the parts that wanted to continue the occupation had stronger grip. It's totally not the case right now
Did you understand what A1kmm is trying to say? If Israel was a democracy Palestinians in occupied territories would have equal voting rights. This was never the case at any point in Israeli history, ergo Israel was never a democracy.
Sure, if it was all one state all along, it was not a democracy, because half of it had no say in its government.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
person above is suggesting that Palestinians should vote in Israel elections and if they don't, it cannot be a democracy. I assume they think that Israel is a 1-state solution de facto, in which case half the country does indeed not get a vote.
That person is me, and yes this is exactly the case.
sorry, didn't check username.
Sure, don't forget to hammer the nerrative.
"The narrative" that everybody should have voting rights?
Oh no, the horror!
In order to do that israel would have to formally declare that territory theirs. Increase the borders of israel. Im pretty sure many in israel would very much like that to be the case but I doubt it will happen.
This premise is invalid. Hamas governed Gaza for the past fifteen years, not Israel. Palestinians held elections until they voted in Hamas, which put an end to that. Israel maintained a blockade, but Egypt also strictly controlled Gaza trade and passage at Rafah. Not being able to ship stuff from your ports sucks, but Hamas made no good faith efforts to really improve the security situation to enable easy trade through Egypt. Having significant external influence over a region doesn't mean you are their government.
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the 'disengagement' in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of 'dual-use' Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.
OK. Now do the West Bank.
Does Mahmoud Abbas not exist?
Oh, is he stealing land, building illegal settlements and oppressing the people living in the West Bank?
Blatantly untrue. Palestinians in the occupied territories did not hold elections before 2006. The first and only Palestinian election was held as a result of the second Intifada, and after the election the international community refused to accept the result because Hamas didn't agree to denounce violent resistance (which of course they didn't because peace doesn't work with Israel).
Oh I guess this is fake news
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Palestine
Okay admittedly I didn't know an election was held in 1996. That said, the PNA was (and still is) an Israeli subcontractor, and not at all a state in any sense of the word. The implication that Palestinians had political independence is false. When I said elections I meant elections as a state, which only happened in 2005-2006 after Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005.
Israel was never a democracy. Palestinians who were granted citizenship once Israel got established lived under a rule similar to the military rule in the illegally occupied West Bank. Then, said illegal military occupation commenced and while the situation for Palestinians with Israeli passport slightly improved, millions of Palestinians have been living under military rule ever since. There wasn’t ever a democracy that included Palestinians so it would be more accurate to call it an ethnocracy which is inherently not democratic.
no, because it was just a 'protocols of the elders of zion'/'henry morton stanley' crossover LARP from day one, if the people who were there first got subjected to laws (which they did) but couldn't vote (which they couldn't), then they were never a democracy. not for a second. they were and are an oligarchy, a racial supremacist theocratic(oh, fun facts) apartheid one. also the genocide, they also started that on basically day 1.
*so about that. i'm told there's, like, a specific law in one of the big jewish holy books that says specifically to not do a zionism and especially not 'in the holy land' unless you're this one specific dead guy, and it is absolutely not okay.