this post was submitted on 06 May 2024
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A Boring Dystopia

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they're not terrorist then what the fuck are they?

They are also victims, none of the things that occurred on May 13th should have ever happened with competent and respectful leadership and negotiation perhaps by the FBI or actual service members, but being a victim doesn't erase every stupid indecent thing people have ever done.

Those children died in the cult's basement. MOVE continued shooting at Firefighters after their roof burst into flames.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I see a cult with a fortified compound and armed soldiers, with multiple missed paroles and a history of armed violence going back over a decade. If they’re not terrorist then what the fuck are they?

Sounds awfully familiar.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Thank goodness it wasn't the same scale as that event, but at least the FBI attempted to negotiate and staved off a full offensive until 51 days had passed. If the Philadelphia police had shown that kind of respect and restraint then things might have ended a lot differently for the MOVE members.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

And yet the Waco siege is still a rallying cry for anti-government groups accusing the FBI and DEA of unjust, violent overreaction, while the MOVE bombing is not. Huh, I wonder what the difference is? /s

[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Could unironically be the difference in body count.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

That's possible, but that doesn't explain the same feeling about the Ruby Ridge incident.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

let's not kid ourselves, it's not the body count, it's the same reason they don't cite Tulsa nor Blair Mountain

[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Terrorist is just a loaded word. Like Hamas is a "terrorist organization" but the state of Israel isn't.

Terrorism often boils down to "enacting violence against systems of oppression". Is the IDF a terrorist organization? What about the DoD? These organizations use violence to perpetuate existing systems of oppression, causing vastly more harm than any domestic "terrorist" organization ever will.

While these 11 people were being killed by the state for being "terrorists", the CIA was backing fascists (contras) to overthrow democratically elected socialists in Nicaragua. Is the CIA a terrorist organization?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

No man they literally threatened to bomb other countries for shit happening in the us, that's everyone's definition of terrorism.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

This misses the point. If we're being technical, Hamas/MOVE is obviously a terrorist organization. Trying to convince me that they are isn't going to change my position, because I already believe that.

It's just that in-so-far as Hamas/MOVE etc. are terrorist organizations, the CIA/IDF are far larger ones. They inflict terror and use violence for political gain, the only difference is they're the ones in power so they decide who is a terrorist.

That's the problem with the word. The IDF and Hamas are both violent terror groups that shouldn't exist, but Hamas only exists as a result of the IDF's genocidal campaign, and yet we only call Hamas a terror group. It's deeply problematic.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago
[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

no, the CIA and IDF are "freedom fighters"

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

That's whataboutism, multiple wrongs don't make a right and none of MOVE's actions are forgiven by this argument.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Calling this whataboutism is like responding to the claim "people have a biological urge to reproduce" as a naturalistic fallacy.

You're using the word in sorta the right ballpark (I did make a comparison, e.g a "what about"), however not every time someone says "what about X" are they committing a fallacy.

My entire point was how terrorist is a loaded word, that we only use it to describe one side (the side not in power), even though the technical definition obviously fits organizations in power. Making a comparison to demonstrate my literal only point isn't fallacious.

There were native american terror groups, yet the U.S government that literally genocided millions of native Americans isn't a terror organization, despite their use of terror and violence to achieve political goals. It's a word with clear problematic etymology.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The CIA supporting Fascism in South America has fuck all to do with a confrontation between militarized police and a cult on May 13th 1985 in Philadelphia. If you think that's not whataboutism then you're dumb as a sack of bricks.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yeah no need to get this hostile.

The word "terrorist" was used, and getting into the etymology of the word is best exemplified by how large "non-terrorist" organizations operate exactly like large terrorist organizations.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yeah but what about the CIA, right? Those are an example of terrorists, right? But yeah what about Hillary Clinton's Emails? But what about the cost of recycling solar? What about it, right? What about those, you got an answer for those?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Exactly. And saying "what about" isn't always a fallacy. That's like thinking anyone says a natural fact they're committing a naturalistic fallacy.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

But what about the Grand Canyon?

[–] [email protected] -2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Yup, you can also make comparisons to irrelevant things. Not all comparisons are fallacious.

The way the CIA/IDF behave compared to other "terrorist" organizations is relevant to the etymology of the word. I don't see how the Grand Canyon relates to any point you or I made.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

But what about the moon landing?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Oh wow, I didn't get it until this message, fuck I'm an idiot. All comparisons are always fallacious. Thanks for helping me out, friend.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

But what about Jeffrey Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein ran a terrorist organization and this cult ran a terrorist organization and therefor Jeffrey Epstein is involved in the MOVE cult. And the CIA. /sarcasm

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago

Yeah, that was my point. I can't believe I didn't see what my own point was until you cleared it up for me. It wasn't about how "terrorist was a loaded word" even though that's what I said.

I'm glad you're here to clear up the difference between what I said and what I meant, otherwise I'd be genuinely lost.

Keep it coming.