zenitsu

Of course, the US government has a stronger propaganda platform in the US than Russia has in the US.

There's nothing "of course" about this statement. All evidence points to Russia having a better handle on the US population's opinion than the US.

So, as I've asked several times now, what is your solution to this situation?

I'm not here to generate solutions, no idea why you keep asking for one. The US has a unique issue with propaganda because of the first amendment, there's no easy solution other than people smartening up and social media companies taking more responsibility for their content via fact checkers etc.

An example of her... not doing that? I already did, when she was asked in an interview what she would do differently

An example of how she could've distinguished herself successfully...

Again, what's you're plan to account for people being dumbasses? If people are dumbasses, and you want politicians to keep running campaigns as if they weren't, then the inevitable result of what you want is that you lose.

I'm not trying to present a plan. I'm trying to explain the sources of disinformation and how people were manipulated by them. The media environment needs to be fixed, but people have already been successfully manipulated into distrusting traditional media and trusting Russian bot farm accounts on Twitter instead. How to fix this environment now? God knows

I really feel like you're underestimating the challenge of communicating ideas to a broad population.

I feel like I'm highlighting that, if anything.

but that doesn’t resolve the question of how you get the message out on a large scale and convince people of it

Should be easy, given that the US has a much stronger propaganda platform than Russia no? /s

It's almost as if despite this being shown across all media, a massive amount of voters were still manipulated by foreign & right-wing propaganda into ignoring/dismissing it.

“distinguishing herself from him in literally any way”

should be easy for you to give an actual example then.

It was very easy to associate her with the real or imagined failures of the Biden campaign because she did nothing at all to distinguish herself from them.

No, it was easy because people are dumbasses and don't know basic facts like "the VP doesn't have much power". Again, she can't real distinguish herself much from her own administration if troglodytes aren't even aware of what a VP can or can't do. Trump literally just copy/pasted his critiques of Biden onto her and people ate that shit up lmao.

Almost as if complex economic explanations

basic facts like how the economy is performing and covid caused global inflation is "complex economic explanations" now?

There was no way to prove to the American people that he was going to give government positions to the people behind it.

Is what you actually said, I didn't recall it too well but I wasn't "lying". Knowing he was going to put them in government was easily predictable to anyone with open eyes. Buying the "Trump distanced himself from project 2025" bs is pure retardation.

The idea of Kamala Harris being more genuine/honest than me is too absurd to even take offense at

If you're suggesting that she should've thrown Biden under the bus in her response, then it's not absurd at all.

Because the vice president doesn’t have much power? Obviously.

Ah yes, all of a sudden voters are aware of the facts "oBviOusLy" lmao. Let's just pretend that whatever real or imagined failures of the Biden admin weren't successfully thrown onto her during the campaign. zzzzzzzzzz

“You are struggling, and the reason you’re struggling is minorities” vs “You’re not struggling, it’s all in your head, the economy’s doing fine actually,”

It's more like “You are struggling, and the reason you’re struggling is minorities” vs the basic facts of how the country is actually performing and what actually caused inflation all over the world. Too many Americans are just too dumb and misinformed, that much is clear.

Do you genuinely want to eliminate the country through military force?

Not sure why you pulled this absurd strawman out of your ass. Who said anything about "eliminating"? They can just fuck off back to their own country, it's not that hard.

I’ll forgive your lie because it seems like you’re genuinely incapable of distinguishing between those two propositions

You said "nobody could've predicted that Trump would put project 2025 heads into government". So shove your forgiveness up your ass you tankie clown. Don't patronize me.

Because of my assessment of the situation.

Oh is this your expert military opinion? Pfft.

because they’re more materially invested in the conflict than the US.

Did you forget that I said "supporting Ukraine properly" or are you just selectively blind?

How do you know Ukraine winning wouldn’t result in death camps all over Ukraine for years?

Which side has leaders with warrants for genocide again? If that question isn't proof that you're a bad faith clown just saying nonsense for the sake of debate, idk what is.

It did not have the impact you want it to have because people vote according to their material interests

I don't know why I bother. They didn't vote according to the REALITY of their material interests you dumbass, they voted according to their MISINFORMED INTERPRETATION of their material interests. WHY YOU ASK? Because the administration did objectively well MATERIALLY and NOBODY CARED. Trump is also OBJECTIVELY BAD for their MATERIAL INTERESTS, this is proven by both the FACTS of his first term and the DOGSHIT or NON-EXISTENT PLANS for his second term.

blame the rich, the billionaires who are hoarding wealth and price gouging

This is just a dogshit tankie take. Trump filled his cabinet with billionaires and was supported by the richest man on earth. Nobody cares about this "blame the rich" nonsense, evidently. It's clear that you just see everything through this trash tankie lens which is why it feels like I'm talking to a schizo. Hilarious that you genuinely think that you would've been better at coming up with a successful strategy for Kamala than people who do that shit for a living.

directly asked what she would do differently than Biden on the economy and had *absolutely no answer," which was an extreme political fumble. Saying virtually anything would be better than that. She is a terrible politician with poor political instincts

Ah yes, I know that in your world of non-existent morality this would've had an easy counter. But shitting on your current boss by making up nonsense about how he actually did things poorly (when he didn't) doesn't come easily for people who are more genuine/honest than you. Also, isn't the obvious answer to anything Kamala could say "why didn't you do/push for that policy as the vice president?"

US politics should be recognized for what it is.

I do recognize it as the piece of shit it currently is yes.

Because you can. You just have to view things through a materialist lens rather than an idealist one.

Engaging in and furthering the decay just to win isn't the way to go. Clear out the trash so that democracy can actually function. Ridding ourselves of this dogshit disinformation environment and returning to normal politics isn't "idealist", we've been there not too long ago.

“People persue their own interests” is not a “hyper-cynical teenage view” lmao.

pretending that everyone does this to the same extent is what makes it a hyper-cynical teenage view.

my class interests

spare me the tankie cringe

If you want to ask me to set aside my own interests in favor of your opinions about morality

If I'm just comparing how shit the Russian gov is vs the US gov, your interests aren't relevant in the first place.

Then make the case, because you haven’t. All you’ve done is talk about how they’re the bad guys and pulled out an unrelated example from 80 years ago that’s resulted in disaster every time it’s been used as an example.

Do you live under a fucking rock? Do you need it explained to you why failing to stand up to this invasion might encourage others (like China->Taiwan)? Why stability/security in the West/World is vital for prosperity and won't be possible unless Russia is defeated, given that they've spent most of the time under this regime by being raping & pillaging shits?

Of course I do. I mean, to the extent that it’s possible to predict any events. It’s the deaths from surrendering versus the deaths from surrendering plus the deaths from however long the war keeps going.

Hubris? Yet you think it was super difficult to predict Trumps relationship to Project 2025 lmao. Tell me, how do you know that supporting Ukraine properly doesn't result in Russia's defeat in, say another year or that surrendering them doesn't result in death camps all over Ukraine for years? Fuck off with your "off course I do". Now go back to reading whatever tankie trash that's been rotting your brain as you're clearly only interested in bad faith debate and juggling semantics.

but we’re discussing voter behavior, which doesn’t necessarily see that connection or care as much as they perhaps should

Yes, because they're heavily brainwashed by foreign and right-wing propaganda. Just waiting for you to finally concede this basic fact.

Did those things have a direct, material impact on broad segments of the population?

The fact that the candidate outed himself as a senile retard should have the material impact of shifting votes to the opposition.

Regardless of whether she should have had to, she did have to.

And how exactly should Kamala distance herself realistically from the administration she herself was in? Do you think you can come up with some gem of an insight that all the top advisers failed to see? Cool

you’re just complaining about how reality works

YES I AM. I'm not sure why you insist on pretending the current state of US politics is a normal reality that people are meant to just conform to, where you can still calculate what the right move is or isn't according to any kind of rules that make sense. It's completely fucked. Good faith politicians can't function normally in this dogshit environment where people think that random social media posts are a genuine substitute for real news, or spend their days listening to pundits who are literally paid by Russia.

THE WHOLE POINT IS HOW DISINFORMATION IS KILLING DEMOCRACY YES.

“good guys” and “bad guys” like it’s a Saturday morning cartoon. In reality, they’re all ruthlessly self-interested and neither Russia nor the US has any interest in improving the lives of ordinary people

Not sure why you think this hyper-cynical teenage view is any less of an inane and immature lens than "saturday morning cartoons"

The correct way to view such conflicts is through the lens of realpolitik.

That's just your opinion.

ones exploiting me, and are therefore my most direct and primary enemy.

I never positioned the conversation as being about who is exploiting YOU more though. You keep inserting your own personal interests as if it should be the compass when comparing the US and Russia, idk why.

then you need to be able to make the case that supporting the American capitalists/government against the Russians is somehow in line with my material class interests

No time for tankie bs, sorry. If you can't already see how the US gov is incomparably better to what Russia has to over the world then you're too far gone.

you won’t be able to make it to a broad audience

I'm not a celebrity or a pundit, I'm not here to sell my case to a "broad audience", I just talk to individuals.

And if Ukraine is going to be abandoned anyway

"We should abandon it because it's going to be abandoned anyway" is circular logic nonsense. The point should be people realizing that it's best, even just for their own self-interest, for Ukraine to win.

because it just means more people will die.

You have no idea if supporting or surrendering would result in more or less deaths. Don't pretend to know.

Sure, but I’m not talking about anything related to morality. I’m talking about the way the world is and does work, not how the world ought to work. I’d be happy to discuss morality some other time, but when we’re trying to understand physical reality, we need to be able to set it aside. But you refuse to do that. You aren’t capable of looking at things objectively because you’re always immediately trying to inject you opinions about how it ought to be.

No, you're just trying to cleanly separate morality from real events as if this is a fucking video game. The moral fiber of politicians for example, is and should be a concern because it does have an impact in pHysiCaL rEaLiTy.

it was less than Trump did it right and more that Kamala did it horribly wrong.

Oh really? was it Kamala that ranted about Haitians eating pets? danced for 40 min onstage to ave maria and ymca like a senile kook? She shouldn't have to distance herself from the Biden administration because the administration objectively did a good job. It's really hard for you to admit that people are just uninformed or misinformed by propaganda.

Ok then, great, should be easy then. Just be a bad actor and get the morons to fall for your propaganda instead of theirs.

This is also another opportunity for you to realise that morality actually exists and is something to account for.