jwiggler

This particular attack probably had nothing to do with any of this, but she could probably be described as offensive from the economic equality standpoint, because she is a billionaire, from the environmental justice standpoint, because she is a frequent private-jet user, and from the music scene standpoint, because she seemingly intentionally pushes out other female artists from billboard spots by re-releasing albums in specific locations/time periods during which her peers are releasing their albums.

These right wing-ass fuckers ruin everything you love, and now they've come for LOTR.

All that text essentially is summarised as "you arguing that Democrats are the lesser evil is defending them, and makes you a liberal."

If calling Democrats evil, while also saying you should vote for them, AND work outside the political system to create meaningful widespread change, makes me a liberal, then I guess I'm a liberal. You can think that means I support genocide if you want, but I won't be organizing with you if that's the case. Hope you have a great day.

My contributions to this thread have upheld a single liberal value and that's voting, which I don't even think has that much value when you look at the opinions of the majority of Americans on core domestic and international issues vs the actual policies that are implemented by those they vote in. The United States is not a democracy, and simply voting Democrats will not fix anything. Not once have I defended Democrats complicity in the genocide, or the so called free market, their role in maintaining American hegemony through force and the dollar, the immorality of rent and interest collection, etc -- they perpetuate all of that! -- unless you count my noting that the Republicans of the United States are more in support of Israel than Democrats, as they have nobody willing to call the genocide a genocide, whereas Democrats have few, and they (Republicans under Trumps presidency) would and have tried further legitimizing Israel's actions against Palestinians -- mainly by moving the US embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv and calling West Bank settlements, which are obviously illegal, legal.

Multiple times I've said, yes, Democrats are complicit in genocide, and overall they exist to perpetuate the power of the state, which itself is, at the end of the day, a monopolization of violence through the police. But at the very least, they are less likely to go full privatization, full state authority over women's bodies, and more likely to do something about the genocide other than urge Israel to "get the job done," as Trump has said himself.

So while, ultimately, the Democratic party (along with all other political parties) needs to dissolve in order for individuals in the US to have full political and personal freedom, in the near term that is not going to happen, and even though my vote will almost certainly mean nothing in terms of policy, at least I can do that and try things outside the political system. Whereas not voting is not only symbolically useless, as they'll just see me as another person on the couch, at least voting has a small amount of practicality.

And regarding methods of converting liberals to leftists, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Again, I'll refer to the meaning associated with the terms socialism, communism, and anarchism in the US -- they are demonized to the point where people simply dismiss you if you mention them, and then you've lost your opportunity.

Edit: Also, I appreciate your genuine response, but at the same time the gatekeeping of "well, what have you organized?" is pretty lame. The truth is, nothing. I've organized nothing. But I still believe that unjustified hierarchy is harmful and that at the end of the day what a state is is the ability to use force to uphold that hierarchy.

I'm really not sure what could be more rational than voting in the direction that leans away from what you don't want (further genocide, further authoritarianism) while still recognizing that direction does not lean far enough, and therefore continuing to organize outside the political system.

What you would have me do is not vote at all (an irrational, symbolic gesture, ceding increased power to hard right authoritarians) and continue to organize outside the political system.

I choose to do both, vote and organize, because that's really the maximum amount I can do here. You say a vote for Harris is supporting genocide. Well, a vote for Trump is also supporting genocide. And a vote for nobody means I have no preference at all. Well, I do have a preference -- I prefer the party that, at least publicly, supports a two state solution. The party which consists of at least a few individuals who actually calls the conflict what it is, which is a genocide. As opposed to the other, which has ZERO members even willing to call it a genocide.

At the same time, recognizing that the system is broken, that the Democratic party is complicit in the crimes of the US, and pushing from outside the political system, for radical change.

I would use the full extent of my power as an individual, while you would prefer me to use only a portion of it. Could you explain to me how that is more rational than using my full power? (and that's a genuine question, because if I know how your mind works maybe I'll agree)

Wow! You've convinced me! I'll never take part in a US election ever again! Where can I join your political party, so that they can tell me what to do from the top-down instead? Yay! I'm not a genocider anymore!

Yes, these things work on a small scale, as society grows and becomes more complex, it starts to require things likes specialization, delegation of works, and gasp, central planning. The same way complex organisms require things like nervous systems and brains. That's why every large scale society ends up being structured in a hierarchical fashion. The evolutionary pressures select for that sort of structure because it's more efficient.

Actually, the archaeological record proves this to be false, as some of the cities they've found consisted of hundreds of thousands of inhabitants. You're just perpetuating a pseudo scientific idea of social organization, in the same way that capitalists do.

But you don't seem to be really interested in actual conversation, just "you're complicit in genocide."

Which, again, there isn't much I can do besides go to protests and declare, "yes, it is a genocide. Yes, the US and the democratic party is complicit, and yes, if Republicans are elected they will attempt to legitimize Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank and their overall utter destruction of the Palestinian people."

Alright dude, in that case don't vote, give Trump a better chance, but don't come whining to me when he comes out in support of a single-state solution, and that state is not Palestine. Dunno what else to tell you.

I could attend every Free Palestine protest, boycott every Israel-affiliated company, volunteer at human-rights organizations, raise money for Palestinian relief, write a book about the genocide of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel, and cast a vote for Harris rather than Trump, and you would still say I support genocide.

While doing what you would probably rather me do, all those things except not cast a vote at all, would be actively helping the opposition, who not only wants Israel to "finish the job," but also moved the American embassy to Jerusalem, officially recognized Israeli settlements one the West Bank as legal, and has said he wants to deport communists and Free Palestine protesters.

So at the end of the day, yeah I'm gonna vote for Harris. Am I happy with the Democratic party? Of fucking course not, but I don't really have a choice in the matter.

~~Exactly~~. You joke, but you can't bring someone to your side by immediately making an enemy of them.

edit: Not to mention in Western media, socialism is taboo, communism is literally the devil (Trump recently said at one of his rallies he would deport all the communists, lol) and anarchism is synonymous with chaos.

In order to win these people over, I'm not gonna go up to each one and say "oh hey, by the way, you are a citizen of the worlds largest terrorist organization. the flag you salute is synonymous with an authoritarian empire that even today works to prevent any non-capitalistic democratic movement from occurring. It is a feudal state that extracts tribute from the rest of the world in the form of mass imports and few exports, incurring meaningless debt because at the end of the day it can print more money, lend it to the banks, and not worry about repercussions, because the rest of the world's currency is backed by theirs instead of gold, and if any country step out of line, they can employ violence from any one of the 700+ military bases they control worldwide. Your country controls what money is, inherently, and monopolizes violence, and therefore holds the rest of the world in a headlock, and you are part of the problem" Even though all of that is true.

No, I'm probably gonna say "isn't it kinda wild Obama bailed out the banks in 2008? Like, bankers actually offer nothing of value to society," or "its so terrible that the US has been supporting Israel for so long, as they have continually decimated and oppressed the Palestinian people," and have an interesting (albeit, often terribly sad) discussion from there.

First of all, who are you to tell me what I believe? If I believe that living in a commune-style societal arrangement would be better than market or trade-style arrangement, who are you to tell me that I actually don't believe that? Perhaps I'm not a communist like yourself -- I'm guessing you want something that preserves some level of social stratification -- but to me that is equally unacceptable. If we believe that all people are equal, why are we always trying to establish these top-down decision making structures, in which one person has arbitrary power over another?

Second of all, there are actually numerous examples in the archaeological and anthropological records of communities that lived in just that for hundreds of years -- hierarchy-less societies that had little notion of private property. Two books on the subject are Debt: The First 5000 years by David Graeber and The Dawn of Everything, by Graeber and David Wengrow, both of which are backed by academic rigor. This isn't to say anarchist societies are impermeable to outside forces -- obviously those anarchistic societies no longer exist, so you could say that they "failed." But I'm sure you, yourself, would be a bit offended if I told you state communism has never been successful historically, when in fact one of the main reasons it hasn't is because the West has been at war with state communism as an ideology for the past century and a half. Still, these anthropological examples at the very least expand our understanding of what is politically possible, and you saying "it has never worked, so it will never work," is just as silly as you saying "capitalism won, and therefore it must be the correct form of societal and economic arrangement."

Third of all, and I repeat myself, who are you to say that I'm content with how things are, I'm not doing anything practical to address problems, and that I'm giving a vote for genocide? The only way to not vote for a genociding politician in the upcoming election is to not vote at all, which is doing less than I'm already doing, and likely only going to help the party even further right. Not to mention, you don't fucking know me, or know what levels of organization I have or haven't been a part of. And furthermore, why would I be propelled to further organize, when people like you are so unpleasant to discuss politics with? Why would I want to collaborate with you when you talk like this?

We're on the same side, but -- Jesus -- you're making me wish we weren't. Your entire demeanor in this thread is what prevents liberals from realizing what you, yourself, are trying to convince them -- that the American Democratic party are part of the problem.

For the sake of leftists, please do better.

edit: Oh and you're a mod of this page? For the love of god dude please improve your rhetorical skills. I understand your frustration, but American liberals are entrenched in a two party system that forces them to choose between two evils. Alienating them from the getgo is not a good strategy

What the fuck are you on about? What do you want me to do? Dissolve the state myself?

I'm fucking communist already, just not your hierarchical brand. But I'm still gonna vote, because the US can still swing further to the right.

How do you expect to get people on your side if you say shit like

You have absolutely no shame. There is no educating people like you.

Jesus.