this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2023
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Can't we just talk about it without the maths? Guys? (mander.xyz)
submitted 10 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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[–] [email protected] 55 points 10 months ago (2 children)

If God can exist without being created by something, why can't the universe?

[–] [email protected] 29 points 10 months ago (4 children)

The argument I've heard is "It must stop somewhere, and whatever it stops at, we'll call that god". It's not a good argument, because it then hopes that you conflate the Judeo-Christian deity with that label and make a whole bunch of assumptions.

It's often paired with woo that falls down to simply asking "Why?", such as "Nothing could possibly be simpler than my deity"

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

What is this stop business? I have it on good authority that it's turtles all the way down.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago

It’s just the one turtle flying through space, the Great A'Tuin

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago (3 children)

So if it stops at the universe, the universe itself is called 'God'?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

To which I would ask, "Why are you using the word 'god'?"

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

Everybody asks what is god, why is god... Nobody asks how is god.

...and it's pronounced "jod" BTW.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago

Yeah exactly, though then you'd generally get arguments pushing you towards "But it's actually totes Jesus".

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

Furthermore, what does he need with a starship?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

If I remember correctly from my hazy years of school philosophy classes, it was Thomas Aquinas who suggested it. Who was a friar, so that's why the assumption of the religion.

Also, I understood the core idea being that God isn't what IS the beginning, but that the point where human mind can't comprehend beyond is God. Which, back then, and even now, I considered to be a lazy copout for a philosopher, as the point of a philosopher is to test the limits of our understanding.

Then again, for friar to state that the end solution is not god for their thinkings, at that time and place, would've probably result in being positioned as a centerpiece of a bonfire.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago

It's also a bad argument, because the concept of things being 'created' is an entirely human one. It's us who decided that if a pile of pre-existing atoms are moved into the shape of a chair, we'll say that chair was 'created'.

Aside from this conceptual creation, nothing is ever created in the universe, as far as we know. Atoms don't ever just pop into existence out of thin air.

I have heard the argument that the universe was just as well 'created' in the conceptual sense, so everything existed beforehand, it was just moved into a shape that we recognize as 'universe' today.
But that would still mean there's no argument for a creator and of course, this is simply not what most people mean when they talk about the creation of the universe.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Not my argument but causality is a principle of the universe and may not be applicable to entities which exist outside of it.

The universe is bound by physical rules but something which exists outside of it may not be. Of course this is pure conjecture but you can find interesting theological arguments beyond creationists.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I hate to tell you but philosophy has its own branch of basically math (logic). You need math to prove things :(

[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago

It's more like math uses logic as a tool to prove things.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Is that in the form of the supporting statistical data, for the maths alone, or...? For logic I have a better understanding, but maths has been more of a struggle for me.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

It's nothing to do with statistics, "just" logic. But most people find that it starts to feel like maths real quick.

If you want to try it: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/24-241-logic-i-fall-2009/

[–] [email protected] 19 points 10 months ago

Having a hard time finding the average velocity of a car is definitely a sign from the universe that you should switch majors.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago

First year physics students asking the important questions for the 10th time that day

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

The question should be shifted.

If there is a god, does it matter?

Ok so now let's assume a god like sentient creature formed our universe. Maybe they even intentionally created us.

We have no indication that they even once interacted with us in over 2000 or rather several million years.

Let's go further and assume the god like creature is indeed the Christian God.

We have an immortal, allknowing and allmighty God who doesn't care about innocent dying, suffering and other cruelties. So if the Christian God exists he is an asshole!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago

but i like math :(