this post was submitted on 15 Nov 2023
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Anarchism

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Discuss anarchist praxis and philosophy. Don't take yourselves too seriously.

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Tankies and the Left-Unity Scam (raddle.me)
submitted 11 months ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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Funny aside, ziq hates me :D

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[–] [email protected] 33 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

Why are you seriously posting something from ziq, a person that hates you?

Anyways, why are you taking anything he says seriously?

I just read the first few paragraphs, which include an ahistorical description of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, ignores the CIA's operations in Afghanistan before 1979 (which they have admitted to themselves) and cites an American professor living in South Korea whose entire job is to write propaganda about North Korea, propaganda which his own peers in the USA and South Korea have criticized and called absurd.

There is little of value here, this is the ramblings of someone that throwing stuff out there hoping it sticks. This is not anarchist theory. The first few paragraphs are less factual than the average descriptions of history that you'd see on liberal/capitalist media or get in a high school history class.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Also Tainanmen. Athough fatal clashes did occur on Chang’An avenue and elsewhere in the city, in which hundreds of civilians and a smaller number of soldiers died, witness testimony from numerous western journalists and diplomats and student organizers themselves who were in the square all night, has indicated that no one died in Tiananmen itself. A Spanish news crew even filmed crowds of students walking out of the square at the end of the night. The Tiananmen Square Massacre is a stunning example of a “big lie repeated often enough.”

The first link is a comprehensive article. I can link more on request.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

spoilered to avoid spammingSome important context for why things turned so ugly after two months of peace, and why a false narrative took hold in such a coordinated way afterward, is that the CIA and its cutouts were openly present. For starters, 30 year CIA veteran James Lilley was appointed ambassador to China on April 20th, five days after the start of public gatherings in Tiananmen, which were initially to mourn the April 15 death of Hu Yaobang. Gene Sharp, who literally wrote the manual for how to start nonviolent color revolutions, flew in for 9 days and observed mysterious efforts to drive the protesters to violence — an intelligence asset only partially aware of the project he was involved in. The CIA was embedded with the protesters "for months" according to the Vancouver Sun, steering and equipping them. Voice of America was broadcasting disinformation to PLA military bases claiming some units were loyal to the protesters and were firing on other units, and claiming Deng Xiaoping was near death — literally attempting to whip up a military insurrection. This was a committed US effort to topple the Chinese government, using the momentum of the USSR dissolving and Hu Yaobang’s death.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Another "both-sides" banger by ziq.

“Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce.”

This is a useless definition of fascism. It describes basically any existing political-economic system. Even an anarchist system falls under it. Unless your anarchist system wouldn't maintain a monopoly on political power, forcibly suppress people trying to destroy it, and not have control over industry and commerce?

I don't really know where to begin with this essay. To try to take it apart point by point would take ages and it just hits on all the same points that liberals do anyway (and uses the same sources). I'm just tired of fighting with anarchist comrades. Maybe when the struggle gets to the point that this shit actually matters we can try to resolve our contradictions. Until then I'm fine working with anarchists in actual real life work that matters.

Funny aside, ziq hates me :D

Yeahh, zig hates everyone btw lol. They're one of those ridiculous "anti-civ" "anarchists" who basically exist solely online. Have you read their essays where they advocate for ending organized agriculture and returning to a hunter-gatherer subsistence lifestyle? Lmao

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Any other definition of fascism I've seen includes the whole ethnic superiority/ social hierarchy aspect in the definition.

... Not that it makes a whole lot of difference what with Homo Sovieticus or N. Korean weird racial purity fetish but it's still disingenuous to leave it out

[–] [email protected] 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The most useful definitions of fascism I've seen are how it's primarily a response to a collapse in liberal economic order and certain sectors of capital find it useful to rile up popular suppression of leftist organizing. As in, capitalists hit the emergency button to maintain authority and drop the theater of democracy. In some cases fascists will represent specific sectors of capital, such as manufacturing, at the expense of other sectors such as finance. The ethnic superiority thing comes along with typical revanchist rhetoric about restoring order, which is the main plank of a standard fascist movement: "We'll get rid of the socialists and restore the previous order."

I really do think it's most practical to view fascism as an emergency movement. It's panic, it's frenzied stripping of the copper wires. Not to get into it here, but "peacetime" fascism is arguably modern neoliberalism.

I typically point to Robert O. Paxton's work. He's a liberal, but otherwise has a very good insight into fascism.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Fascism is not inherently as aggressively racist as the Nazis, though racial ideology seems to be an inevitable part of it. See how Mussolini wasn't exactly running racial pogroms, at least until Hitler pushed him in that direction.

Your characterization of those socialist states is wildly incongruous and misleading, but I don't think there's hope on moving that needle.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Im totally happy to hear explanations as to why it's not a racial superiority thing, I was just given to understand that N. Korea has an insane racial dogma and that the Hom Sovieticus was all about racial evolution.

Which was very trendy at the time. Doesn't mean it aged well.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I would encourage you to actually read about these topics and especially look at all at primary sources.

The idea of the New Soviet Man was simply that people are formed by their material conditions, so a new set of conditions in a society that fosters pro-social values and development would produce people who were different from those raised under the Czar or in liberal states. It is absolutely not a race thing. If you want to hear about eugenics being cool, try post-exile Trotsky (fuck him, he was a crank).

With the DPRK, I'll need a reference because otherwise it just sounds like one of the countless things just invented by South Korea or the US to slander them. My guess is that they just have their own version of the New Soviet Man as a matter of cultural inheritance from their involvement with the Soviet Union.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago

We have brought this upon ourselves. We couldn’t let this go and now ziq has been summoned. All is lost.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I see it now.

You're a wrecker and that's all you seem to be.

Initially I thought you were just naive, then a troll. But your only aim is to wreck.

Have a shit day!

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Initially I thought you were just naive, then a troll. But your only aim is to wreck.

Don't forget immature as well!

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Of all means which wisdom acquires to ensure happiness throughout the whole of life, by far the most important is friendship.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

Correct

[–] [email protected] 21 points 11 months ago (1 children)

When the revolution comes, you will be forced to eat your veggies and go to bed at a reasonable hour

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I'll rather die before I eat my veggies!

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago (9 children)

Idiot

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You made an irreverent joke, they respond with an irreverent joke, you respond with a flat insult.

Fucking why??? Is this me not understanding people or is this fucking bizarre?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

i-think-that

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm genuinely asking, whether it's normal or bizarre this confuses me.

People often confuse the shit outta me.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I think a lot of Hexbears are just kinda upset and mad at them for all the shit-stirring in the last few days. I don't really blame them.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I mean the way I see it, there was one initial incident of shitstirring, and it's just been escalating leftist infighting since then. It wasn't even originally made by db0, or in reference to hexbear specifically (but them sharing it was really the shitstirring incident).

To be blunt it seems like the magnitude of the hexbear response seems to have more to do with them being federated and given tacit permission to keep commenting about it here than anything else. There is a lot worse going on elsewhere that hexbear users don't invest this much energy in because it is less convenient to do so.

None of that really helps me understand this attitude/behavior that seems like whiplash between humor and hatred.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Well, as far as I'm aware it started with that awful "tankie" meme posted by db0 that portrayed MLs/MLMs as inhuman monsters rolling out the firing squads at the earlier opportunity. That thread blew up when our users saw it on our feeds and voiced their opinions with it. Since then, there's been a few more threads posted by db0 and they keep blowing up cuz it's usually something our users take offense to (like posting this essay by ziq, famous terminally-online "anti-civ anarchist"/ecofascist). I have only seen one thread by our users about db0 but that came after a few days of db0 posting threads like this intentionally calling out MLs or "tankies" in a bad-faith and provocative manner.

To be blunt it seems like the magnitude of the hexbear response seems to have more to do with them being federated and given tacit permission to keep commenting about it here than anything else. There is a lot worse going on elsewhere that hexbear users don't invest this much energy in because it is less convenient to do so.

Well, we are aware of places like lemmy.world with much worse politics. These threads just keep coming up in our feeds that we can reply to with our usual accounts. Db0 is free to ban us all or add a rule saying MLs can't comment in this community but that does sound a lot like "forcible suppression of opposition" lol.

None of that really helps me understand this attitude/behavior that seems like whiplash between humor and hatred.

If it helps, that's just kinda what Hexbear's site culture is like lol. People are very passionate about politics here and can get upset about people behaving in a manner like db0. That being said, I have seen a lot of constructive and calm conversations between our users and other instances' users about politics even when we disagree.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I guess site culture is an answer I can accept, if not have understanding of.

I can understand wanting to handle conflict with irreverence and humor. I can also understand being angry and hating each other. Behaving in both of those ways consecutively with very little transition is hard for me to understand.

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 11 months ago (1 children)

what a fucking idiot. calling the Nazis "collectivist capitalism" what the fuck

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

Some of the earliest usage of the word "privatize" in English was in regards to nazi Germany lmao.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 11 months ago

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

i am curious though, why does ziq hate you

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I used to have raddle as the primary fallback for r/piracy but eventually moved it to lemmy and they were really upset about this "betrayal"

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

That's pretty amusing. I was told similar things for making a larger /r/traa replacement than them within five days. Their site is just janky, impressive considering how jank Lemmy is at times

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

So basically they're angry anti-fediverse trolls essentially. For what it's worth decentralization is much better for piracy communities and is arguably the future of social media, whether it's fediverse or something else on a different protocol.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

"unity" is for authoritarians.

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