I think people (especially people in communities directly affected by nazi violence) donβt have any obligation to be involved, or to βforgiveβ somebody who wants to escape certain patterns of thought, but I canβt find any argument against it that fits in my moral compass. Nazism shouldnβt exist but Iβm not so jaded as to think that violence is the ONLY way to combat it
this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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Asklemmy
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I'd hope they work but I've seen too many "former" nazis get criticized for still holding some terrible views then immediately throw a tantrum and run back to the far-right because they don't actually want to take accountability they want to get coddled by the same minorities they hurt and be told how clever and brave they are for no longer being bigots.
Yes, because the ultimately didn't get rid of the root of the problem and so they go back to their ways. Very similar to how a person who doesn't do rehab correctly or had a bad experience with it will go back to using drugs when things get hard because that's their coping mechanism.
They need to have better coping mechanisms.
The exit program in Germany for example has a 3% recidivism rate. Not too bad.
Wow that's way better than I expected. Guess it makes sense Germany would take that sort of thing more seriously.
Assuming it doesn't involve invading a neighboring country, resulting in the deaths of thousands of civilians, then it's all good with me, though I'll admit I don't know a whole lot about these programs.
Why would people be against them
Some view anything less than outright shunning as coddling these viewpoints.
These programs you're referring to are voluntary, right?
So, the folks who would be against such programs on that basis think that if a(n arguably former) nazi enters the group not yet fully free of the bigotry they've taken concrete steps to overcome and says something, say, anti-semitic, if the program doesn't kick them out on a zero-tolerance policy, then the program is supporting (or at least insufficiently condemning) anti-semitism?
Edit: on rereading, I get the feeling you're saying something more like some people think having anything to do with (even recovering) nazis is tacit complicity or something.
You have to keep in mind, this is about protecting people's health and lives.
And just to be clear, Nazis aren't people who say some anti-semitic stuff sometimes. Nazis hurt and kill people. If an organisation manages to help a neo-nazi leave their gang, but that person still holds some anti-semitic views, that's still a win and anyone who disagrees has some weird priorities in my view..
Would it be better if that person completely dropped those views? Of course, but I prefer a rambling racist 100 times to a neo-nazi throwing molotovs into a refugee home or attacking people in general.
Nazis aren't people who say some anti-semitic stuff sometimes. Nazis hurt and kill people.
Agreed. Wasn't trying to say otherwise. But I'd think recovering nazis are frequently "people who say some anti-semitic stuff sometimes." I've known people who have deconverted from both mainstream religions and cults who have needed support in the transition out, and those folks were "kindof brainwashed but working on it." And I don't think nazi groups are entirely dissimilar from cults.
I don't remember which episode specifically, but I remember Ian Danskin ("Innuendo Studios" on YouTube and creator of "The Alt-Right Playbook" series) making some points about how it's good to have spaces meant for people who are "kindof a nazi, but working on it." (He also said those spaces need to be kept well away from safe spaces for marginalized groups, which of course makes sense.)
But I'd think recovering nazis are frequently "people who say some anti-semitic stuff sometimes."
Sure, or racist stuff. But antisemitism, racism and sexism are unfortunately not just limited to nazis, there are plenty of other people who say anti semitic, racist, homophobic and sexist stuff.
And I don't like it when people call all racists nazis because in my view, a Nazi is a specific and extreme version of racist. And of course all forms of racism are bad, but some are way way worse than others.
At first glance, it sounds uncomfortably similar to a "reeducation camp"
Reeducation camps are not voluntary, these groups are voluntary ones; there is nothing wrong with helping people to leave their cults when they show interest in leaving.
At first glance you sound like a Nazi
We can be better than reddit here. Try giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming good faith.
I don't give good faith to literal Nazis. Like come on. Oh no, not being allowed to be a Nazi is an attack on my free speech. Fuck off with that bullshit.
No u
There, happy?
Nah. I'm not happy with Nazis existing. I'm not going to apologize for shitting on someone who literally made an argument against anti Nazism. But keep trying bud. Maybe one day the proud boys will accept you if you just keep trying.