12 years after we learned Flask. 19 years after Django, which also was apparently hot 2 years before it was released.

Maybe all the AI stuff?

Its like the C of web, it'll be a hundred years to kill it

IMO, Ruby is a better Python than Python. It's simpler, has a cleaner syntax, and if you want to do funky stuff metaprogramming can allow you to do cool, and sometimes unspeakable things. Python has great library support, and slowness and Rails did make Ruby unpopular for a bit, but I would love to see a Ruby resurgence that wasn't to do with Rails, because it is truly a lovely language to use.

Hell, I would say that in 2023, it's easier/faster to get something set up and working in Rails than it is with frameworks like Symfony, Express, ASP.NET, etc.

The only language people don't shit on are the ones nobody uses.

Nah, it's historically been a special kind of shit. It started life as a Perl templating engine, then grew out to its own language where it repeated all of Perl's mistakes while adding more of its own. Its community was single-handedly responsible for keeping SQL injection attacks in the OWASP Top 10 list for years. Notice that it's now bundled with "injection attacks" as a generic label for a wider range of similar issues--SQL injection alone would no longer warrant being there. Its conflation of arrays and hash maps meant it took years to wrestle with algorithmic complexity attacks. Perl kept the two separate, and was able to get a patch out for algorithmic complexity almost immediately (though it turned out to have a few bugs of its own, and a true fix came in a few years later; still faster than PHP solved it).

The web from 1998 through 2010 or so was absolutely riddled with bad PHP programs. "But that's not the language's fault", you say? Doesn't matter. Community is an important and underappreciated feature of a language, and PHP had a special kind of shit community. It almost seemed designed to suck away the dross from all other communities.

Consider the plugin system for phpBB:

• Its architecture doesn't have any kind of hook system for plugins; they're added by patching the code in place
• This naturally leads to different plugins interfering with each other
• Having done that, you might choose one of the patch formats already out there, but phpBB decide to create their own
• There are, at first, no tools available to automatically patch in plugins, so administrators (often not developers themselves) need to hand edit the source files and modify the database (the plugin format specifies both together)
• Tools start to emerge over the years to handle it automatically, but they're buggy and unusable for a long time

Is it PHP's fault that one major application was implemented so poorly? YES! Its community is a feature, and its community is what brought us to this.

You want to claim that the language has done better since PHP7? Alright, that's fine. I still don't care. There are so many better options available, and I don't have time to keep up with all of them. I'm happy relegating PHP to being a long-tail language where it trails off slowly over the years like COBOL.

I used PHP for the past year. And honestly I still think it is not a good language. Just of the top of my head.

1. By far the biggest culprit. Arrays. This monstrosity is basically everything. Yes, it is fast but it only teaches bad habits. It is a weird combination of Arrays/Lists/(Dictionary/Hashmap) and you can't know which one it currently is because there are 0 compile time safety checks. Also when used as a parameter it is passing a full copy instead. But the copy of course is only shallow. I have seen so many problems with that. And even worse when someone thinks the way to fix it, is to just json encode/decode the whole thing in order to get a deep copy before passing it.

2. Generics. I still don't get why this is such a huge issue. Like I would rather have a half-baked optional compile time implementation then none at all. The worst part is that IDE tools support generics so you end up inplementing them on the comment level. I shouldn't be forced to use generics through comments.

3. $ for variables. I know that this is just based on how the language grew. But god do I hate having to type it. It is not an easy to reach letter and just breaks my typing flow the whole time. You get used to it but still.

4 . The default functions. Yes. You will mostly use framework provided functions or your own stuff. But you still end up in contact with them and the naming schemes are still all over the place, so it is fast to just google it then hope you accidentally stumble upon it through the IDE. And some things are still straight up missing. Like the best way to deep copy an array is json_encode into json_decode. When I saw this the first time I was sure that must be wrong. But no. That is legit the way to do it.

Also I am stuck with PHP7 so some of my other complains seemed to be fixed in later versions. Also please don't recommend DS for my first issue. I tried to push for it but it got vetoed because "it is too complicated for new devs".

There are a lot of people who think that if a language or framework doesn't completely disallow bad practices (and of course the authors have to agree with their very specific subjective ideas of what bad practices are) then it sucks. I've always found that weird. Like why are you mad at a tool for being "too flexible"? Why not be okay with learning what not to do?

It has also improved a lot in the last years. PHP5 and especially versions older than that weren't very good and deserved a lot of the criticism. PHP7 and onward are much better languages and don't deserve the hate.

I used to think that php was a bad language until recently (used php5 when i was just learning to program, cooked some delicious spaghetti). But after 5 years I had to use PHP at work. The language has improved a lot, but I think a lot of the bad parts are still there.

Like, why does stdclass exist? Why not just use associative arrays? Why are there warning, error, fatal errors, exceptions? Some functions throw exceptions, other raise errors, others return false, other fail silently and you have to call another function to check if there was an error (last_json_error). Why do find functions return false instead of -1? Like every other language? Why can't I use strings with numeric values as maps keys? (I can't have ["001" => value], it gets casted to ["1" => value].

There are no generics, you have to use mixed everywhere. The stdlib is an inconsistent mess, some_snake_case, someCamelCase, verb_noun, noun_verb, functions are not namespaced, everything is global. A lot of duplicates: die vs exit, print vs echo, etc. You are forced to use PSR & autoload to be able to use namespaces in a tolerable way, not including_once everywhere. No UTF-8 support, only ascii. You have to manually use mb_ functions. Variable scoping is weird. Variable variables? Why?

And all that is just comparing it to the average language. If compared to a modern language like Rust, Zig, Swift, php is light years behind.

It's not hot garbage, but I wouldn't call it "good". There's laravel, but not much more. PHP still makes you shoot yourself in the foot by default, unless you spend a lot of time learning its edge cases. Just like javascript.

On that last bit. I agree with you, but people are getting paid to produce, and since they probably just know angular, they use angular everywhere.

Uncached server side rendered response times in double digit milliseconds.

Thirst thought, that sounds slow. But for the use case of delivering html over the Internet it is fast enough.

I also appreciate that you're supposed to learn Django 19 years before you learn Python.

You don't need a framework for PHP. That's the beauty of it, you don't need anything. You cannot build a website with Python without a framework.

Django is pretty nice, yeah. We also have good compiled webapps, with go and rust. Gitea for example uses go.

The dude trying to push Django in 2003