this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2023

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Advice and Resources for PbtA? (ttrpg.network)

submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I'm going to pause my 5e game for the month of July and try something else. I'm thinking about a PbtA game. I ran a few sessions of Masks years ago and it went okay. I'd never played anything that wasn't a d20 system and I remember feeling Masks was bending my brain a bit.

Do you guys have any suggestions for a quality actual play I could watch to try to get a handle on the system? Is there anyone out there that talks about PbtA the way a thousand people on YouTube do about D&D?

I was considering Avatar or Glitterhearts if it makes a difference, but I think that anything PbtA would help me.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I have two Let's Play recommendations for you, however neither is for your preferred systems. They do however showcase well how fiction and mechanics interact.

First recommendation is one of the many solo plays of Ironsworn, or some other solo RPG. Since there is only the player and the game they have to rely on mechanics much more than if it was played in a group. Also since there is just one player, who also GMs, we tend to get insight into how they work with the rules. The Let's Play I'm going to recommend is one from Me, Myself and Die. It is also one of the more recommended ones with good production values. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?app=desktop&list=PLDvunq75UfH_Z92nrYPUsTO_fTHnLTNaT

Second is for the Dungeon World gack Stonetop. At this point calling it a hack is making it a disservice as it have evolved into its own thing. The DW ancestry is clear though. This Let's Play is from the creator of the system with his core playtester group. What makes it stand out it that it is really well edited cutting out plenty of non-play filler. In addition to that the editor have annotated the videos with comments about the mechanical choices the GM makes. Good for following along. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDdTGJVXI31C08Kem-oLzXqRgImtLzXKC

Hopefully this will be of some help.

*Edit: Updated second link. *

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

For the second link I guess you meant Stonetop - Annotated Actual Play ?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Yes. Definitely.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

This is great, thank you. I especially like the thought of a GM's commentary on the game as it runs. That reminds me of the session summaries Matt Colville used to do for his games. Those were very helpful to me when I first started running a game and I'd imagine seeing it alongside the actual session would be more-so.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It often helps to watch the actual play from the author of the game. For example, on YouTube you can find the games of the creator of Blades in the dark or Brindlewood Bay.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

Thanks. I did find an actual play Magpie did for Avatar and a few how to videos. There's a few for Glitter Hearts too, but there's definitely not much compared to all that there is for DnD.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

D&D has such a huge presence in media, so I cannot see nearly the same amount of people talk about D&D in the same way.

Spout Lore or Monster Hour. Two podcasts podcasts that plays Dungeon World and the other Monster of the Week. The thing both do really well, is show how the game should a conversation between the group. Talk to each other to make sure everyone is onboard with what is happening. And more importantly, encourage each other to be PART of the conversation. Which is incredibly important in a PbtA game (could argue that it is in any game really).

Otherwise, there is also a ton of other resources to help explain how to run a PbtA game. But an important thing to note: many PbtA have similarities, but usually, each with feel completely different because they will often do their own thing. Because "being PbtA", usually means following a set of principles. Not rules.

As for Avatar and Glitter Hearts (these are my own takes):

I was sorely disappointed in Avatar. The combat is very unsatisfying because a lot of the game flows rather well, following the fiction and being part of the conversation. But then that flow suddenly comes to a screeching halt when combat comes up. And everyone now has to "switch gears", playing a different way. But the premise and the book in general, is solid and good.

Glitter Hearts is a neat game that tries to cover a genre I really like playing in. But it feels like the creator didn't understand the system nor the genre. So it lead to a game with a good deal of holes, a feeling of being incomplete and half-hearted. This makes it a very bad starter game for someone new to PbtA. Not beginner friendly at all.

I have tried to create a hack, Hearts of Harmony to fix some of these holes and cover some of the things the book missed.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thank you for the thorough response. I'll definitely give Spout Lore a try to begin with. I've been a little curious about Dungeon World as a replacement for 5e. Combat drags on in my games and we've got a limited time to play week to week so I was thinking it might be snappier to play and help us focus on the story. I know very little about PbtA though so maybe that isn't valid.

One of my players gifted me the Avatar Starter set so I was leaning toward running through that. Would you have any advice to help the transitions to and from combat work better?

I picked up Glitter Hearts a while ago because one of my players is wild about Magical Girls and there wasn't much out there I could find aside from it at the time. Have you looked into Girl By Moonlight at all? I haven't played anything Forged in the Dark but I know that the system is well-regarded. I'll give Hearts of Harmony a look too.

Are there any particular PbtA games that you would say take good advantage of the system? I was hoping to use this game as a jumping off point to explore other games and genres in the future if this went well. There's a remarkable number of games that use the system from what I can tell.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

PbtA’s “core” isn’t its mechanics, but its principles (though some might disagree). Some of these core principles are:

Play to Find Out: Don’t decide before hand what happens or do tons of prep.
Fiction First: If a rule wouldn’t make sense in the fiction, ignore or bend the rule to fit the fiction.
Have a Conversation: Talking to each other is a very important part of the game. Without it, you are basically just playing a boardgame, but with room for many misunderstandings.
Fail Forward: Every roll should move the Story forward, leading to something interested. Never just outright fail.

===== Dungeon World =====

Dungeon World is a great game. Though it is a little of a mixed bag if people like it or not. I would say it has its flaws, but I would still enjoy playing it as is. Though, I do mostly play a hacked (house ruled) version of it.

The “trap” with Dungeon World though, is that people who are coming from DnD might fall back on old habits due to DW sharing genre and feel with DnD. And DW, or any PbtA, does not play well when people have that mentality.

These articles explain pretty well how DW is meant to flow. And that flow should be universal for any PbtA you try out (Glitter Hearts, BitD, MotW, etc.).

Dungeon World Guide : Good guide to give an idea of how the game flows.
16 HP Dragon: Great example of how important the fiction is, and how "fiction before rules".

If you really want to break away from the DnD mentality, there is this neat article about creating the story as you play with the players (The Strandberg Recipe)

Basically the GM comes to the table with nothing more than an idea and some loaded questions. Three core questions should establish:

An interesting location
A looming danger
A call to action

What the players answer becomes truths and the premise of the starting adventure.

===== Avatar Legends =====

Regrettable, as the rules are, I don’t have any advice. Normally a PbtA game uses the same rules/principles. It doesn’t have extra sub systems to keep track of. But Avatars combat does.

I have some ideas on how to house rule it to flow more naturally, but never gotten gone into putting it on paper. But I will say that if you have the interest and passion, I don't think the rules would be a hindrance.

===== Girl By Moonlight =====

I haven't looked at Girl By Moonlight that much, but it does look neat. But unfortunately, Blades in the Dark (BitD) and games based on it, have felt rather mechanically heavy for me. I must admit that I haven't tried one. Only read the books. So take my words on that part with a grain of salt.

But on paper when I compare BitD to other PbtA games, there are many more bits and pieces to keep track off. Almost like a mix of DND and PbtA.

===== Favorit System =====

I think Monster of the Week is a good representation of the principles of a PbtA. It is a action-horror game inspired by Buffy: the vampire slayer, x-files, M.I.B. And other similar series/movies. It has some very good sections describing how these games usually flow and how the GM and players are part of telling the story rather than the GM being the one doing all the work.

It being my favorit, might also be colored by the fact that during a very tough GM burnout on DnD, it helped me find the joy and passion for TTRPGs again.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thanks for the thorough response. What hack do you use for Dungeon World? I've heard of things like World of Dungeons or Stonetop, but I didn't know enough about the core system to have looked into it. I'll read through the resources you listed. I think understanding the flow of any PbtA will just help me wrap my brain around the game before I run what will probably be Avatar to start.

It's interesting to hear you talk about some of the principles of PbtA being things like treating the game as a conversation and making rolls contribute to the narrative by not making them binary pass/fail states. I've heard a lot of advice to do things like that for DnD, especially in OSR circles. I feel like I've heard some strong reactions against stuff PbtA from similar circles though. Wonder what the disconnect there is.

That's the first time I've heard someone call Forged in the Dark mechanically heavy. Though whenever I've talked about it its' been in comparison to DnD. So maybe it's less complex in that context. I haven't read any Forged games yet so I'd trust your opinion over mine.

Monster of the Week is definitely on my list of games to try. I'll have to see about running it around Halloween. If it brought you back to the hobby, it has to be something special.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

===== Dungeon World =====

The one I use is one I made myself, Mixed Adventures. It uses aspects from other hacks that I really liked but felt there was things missing. The most unique thing about my hack, is that the wizard and cleric don't have a spell list. But use a freeform kind of magic limited by schools or the deity's domains.

But if you give Dungeon World a try, I think you should try a "hackless" game first. The game is still decent and it will give you can better feel to of if you think it needs tweaking.

And you are correct. Avatar still uses the same flow as other PbtA games. So any experience with other games would give you valuable experience to run it as well :)

===== Principles =====

I feel like I’ve heard some strong reactions against stuff PbtA from similar circles though. Wonder what the disconnect there is

My take on this, is that the biggest difference between DnD and PbtA, is that DnD fixates a lot on balance and encourages a player vs GM mentality. Like encounter planing is so important, players rolls against the GM, the GM has to come up with twists for characters, etc.

That is a lot of work for one single person. And it has been like this for many years. I can imagine to some people, it might feel like being told to try and drive blindfolded. And trust your passengers to tell you were to go.

I have tried to pitched the open PbtA concept to a primary DnD GM a couple times, and one of them just looked at me horrified and asked: "What about my story? My plans?". Or one complained that it didn't seem fair that the players could decide the outcome of the dice .

But so far, from my own experience, I have never been more relaxed during my games. The openess and inclusivity of the players have lead to some amazing twists and turns in stories. Twists I didn't even come up with. So less work for me AND I could actually be surprised by the story.. Kinda like a player :D

===== FitD =====

That’s the first time I’ve heard someone call Forged in the Dark mechanically heavy

It is also my own take, and as I said, I havn't actually tried a game yet. But when I compared it to DnD, FitD is not heavy at all. It is only when I compare it to most other PbtA games. But when I read the books, they still feel like solid games with some good explanations of the games flow.

Not sure if you have any FitD books, but there is one called Wicked Ones which has a free version of it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I'm not familiar with the entire PbtA scene, but I found the Discern Realities podcast useful for getting my head around Dungeon World. It has some actual-play content, though it's one-on-one duet play.

https://www.gauntlet-rpg.com/discern-realities-index.html

Yochai Gal's One Shot World is a free Dungeon World hack that streamlines things a bit (not to the extreme extent of World of Dungeons) and provides some useful tools, prompts etc that the Dungeon World rulebook lacks. Stonetop is on my "to read" list though.

The last resource I'd suggest is 20 Dungeon Starters, which is a $5 PDF on DTRPG, though the product preview gives a good sense of what to expect. Essentially each dungeon starter is a double-sided A4/Letter page showing an appropriate amount of GM prep for a one-shot or beginning adventure of a campaign. A list of sensory impressions & situations, some custom moves and monsters, that sort of thing. The product page used to link to free versions of the starters, but DTRPG has helpfully stripped out the hrefs. This fandom wiki page has links to some of them, though some links are dead.

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