this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2023
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Lemmy

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Everything about Lemmy; bugs, gripes, praises, and advocacy.

For discussion about the lemmy.ml instance, go to [email protected].

founded 4 years ago
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The screenshot shows the recommendations from https://join-lemmy.org/.

Still being federated with exploding-heads does not mean the instance supports them. But it means that shit-heads are allowed to take part in the discussions on their communities. They do intoxicate the discussions we will have. They will attack minorities. Maybe you will not be harassed by them, more vulnerable people will be. They are allowed to moderate communities on these instances. Exploding-heads members actively guide young and unknowing people to their hateful instance.

They try to start discussions about the holocaust https://sh.itjust.works/post/227268. They create communities only to crosspost exploding-heads content https://lemmy.world/c/pharma They take over discussions against them https://exploding-heads.com/comment/132189 "WHY are vulnerable people joining a decentralized system? Isnt this why you want a closed, not for public eyes community?"

This was a link to exploding-heads, because when someone copies a permalink of a comment from them on another instance, it will be a link to their instance.

Are we building a place where vulnerable people are welcome and safe or are we building a place where nazis are welcome and safe?

They want you to block them, they comment that everywhere. They block people who are in favor of defederating them https://sh.itjust.works/post/225714 When their opponents won't see them anymore, they can harass and recruit without being noticed.

Blocking will not solve the problem. They will spread even when you close your eyes.

M̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ t̶h̶i̶s̶ w̶a̶s̶ n̶o̶t̶ d̶o̶n̶e̶ i̶n̶t̶e̶n̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶, b̶u̶t̶ n̶o̶w̶ there is a post with a list of 'health communities on Lemmy' with the first entry guiding to exploding heads. https://lemmy.world/post/396561

It is still possible that some of the mentioned instances do support them. The owner of sh.itjust.works says that because of “free speech” all other instances would be allowed. It is suspicious to me that his line is drawn only for lemmygrad https://sh.itjust.works/comment/130474

The decision to block the Lemmygrad instance was less a question of censorship, and more an issue of personal conviction. As a volunteer dedicating my personal resources and time to facilitating a space for users to create, discover, and discuss - not just on this instance, but across the Fediverse - I admit that this choice was made alone, selfishly, without the consent or thoroughly considering the collective opinion of the community. With the above said, sh.itjust.works has had the lemmygrad instance blocked from its first day.

I’d like to also point out that the lemmygrad instance has far more blocked instances than what is currently blocked here. Maybe you can create a post on that instance to see what that’s all about and report back?

At the same time they seem to ignore the call and vote to defederate with exploding-heads https://sh.itjust.works/post/433483.

They rejected to delete The_Donald from sh.itjust.works until they feared to get isolated from the other instances: https://lemmy.ml/post/1467310. They where aware of The_Donald and ignored early warnings. (https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/266248). TD was more important to them than keeping the only mod of their 4th biggest community c/patientgamers (https://sh.itjust.works/post/291747, https://sh.itjust.works/post/388922)

Since The_Donald was removed, I did not find more racist content on the mentioned servers. That is part their tactics. They act harmless but recruit to their instance, attract likeminded people and chase others away. Discussions on sh.itjust.works about such topics are very toxic already, soon they might be able to do more harm.

(My research is very limited, as i could not search for all exploding-heads member content on other instances by entering their domain. I know there are nice communities on sh.itjust.works.)

What can be done? On joinmastodon.org there is a Mastodon Server Covenant with very few useful rules, one of them is "Active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia". https://joinmastodon.org/covenant It would be a first step to implement these rules for join-lemmy.org. At least instances that want to be recommended on there should have to agree to that rule.

More actions should be taken now. Please make suggestions. Things will only become more complicated. The next reddit wave is incoming.

For those who did not already know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

https://www.upworthy.com/bartender-explains-why-he-swiftly-kicks-nazis-out-of-his-punk-bar-even-if-theyre-not-bothering-anyone

This is not the first time new platforms face these problems, do we really have to repeat the same mistakes?

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (7 children)

Exploding-heads.com has been blocked by lemmy.world

Full list of linked and blocked instances can be found here: https://lemmy.world/instances

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[–] [email protected] 69 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Fucking christian fundamentalists fascists. They are a fucking cancer in every social media platform.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The worst thing it's they are being funded by the conservative elite nations to speak fascist hate all over the internet.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's super effective! Humanity hurt itself in its confusion!

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

They are going to cause issues sooner rather than later in communities that don’t defederate from them. It’s quite literally just a given. I’m shocked some of those instances haven’t defederated from them already.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A mix of naïveté and bad faith actors taking advantage of the naïveté are leading to the current environment, it seems like to me

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think the whole attitude of "oh just block the community and ignore it" really comes from a privilege of not having to deal with the way those communities tend to intersect negatively with vulnerable communities when they were ignored on reddit and the mess that caused. Blocking their biggest communities from your own account does not stop them from giving them the potential to join discussions in bad faith, DMing threats, open up potential doxxings, community brigading, harassment, etc. There comes a point where simply ignoring them does not work as they always try to force their bullshit into communities outside of them and stir trouble if they aren't cut off preemptively. You aren't deplatforming them by defederating them, you are taking away their megaphone and potential to cause real harm those exact communities have shown to do time and time again in the past.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 years ago

The question I always find myself asking is, why is it that people only expect the targets of abuse to do the filtering of that abuse, and why, other than you yourself would like to enact abuse, would you want to leave people engaging in abusive behavior in position to continue being abusive? Beehaw has lamented there not being more flexible moderation tools allowing us to perform more powerful moderation actions, enabling the filtration of abuse on otherwise good servers, but until those tools exist, what good reason is there to ignore and enable abuse?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (7 children)

It's this (mostly) American delusion of unlimited free speech on the internet and it never works out 🤷‍♂️.

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[–] [email protected] 52 points 2 years ago

IMO the best defense is education. Make these people and their bigotry known. I had not heard of them before this post, but now I can be on alert for them, and avoid interacting with them and report them in the future.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 2 years ago (2 children)

They're playing the traditional Alt-Right playbook, and they're playing a bunch of instance admins like fiddles. I've noticed a consistent pattern of abusive trolls being from that instance. My secondary account is on sh.itjust.works, and I'm looking for another instance to be my secondary instance that I use to look at lemmy.world content I can't see from this, my primary account. Thus far, there aren't any instances I can find that have a federation / defederation list that matches my ideal list, so for now, I have my happy account and my "it stresses me out" account.

It seems like there are two camps here in the threadiverse. People who are excited to find an instance admin who moderates the way they like, and people who think an instance admin is only responsible for uptimes and that this entire experiment should be fully unmoderated

[–] [email protected] 24 points 2 years ago (15 children)

Join us at lemmy.dbzer0.com. We're federated with most instances including Beehaw. And no Tankies or Fascists are here. lemmygrad and explodingheads are both defederated.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I have a secondary at lemm.ee, but i don't think i want to keep it after this. I'm definitely looking into dbzer0. Thanks for the suggestion.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (5 children)

Be the change you want to see. Setting up an instance is surprisingly easy, it's the admin stuff that will take much more time, and finding users that will probably be hard. Also scaling once you hit a certain level of size/traffic, but that'd be a good problem to have. To me the most beautiful part of the fediverse is that if you're not finding the instance with rules/defederation/etc you want you can make that place exist.

If you are interested in doing so I'd be more than happy to give what advice or help I can.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago

Running your own is the way, and you get to choose. I personally don't defederate any instances so far, and I think in some way being able to see that content and be aware that it exists is good to not become an echo chamber and remain aware of the gravity of the problem.

Being outside of the US, I wasn't aware of how bad the alt-right was until they started invading Reddit, which used to be rather welcoming and accepting, as was Twitter many years ago. If we just defederate them, it's easy to forget it even exists, and end up with essentially two competing echo chambers.

If not already a feature, instances could filter remote communities and drop posts/comments from locally defederated instances so that local users don't see that content despite the remote instance hosting it. You own the server, you can present the content however you want.

I'm sure in time some of those filtered instances will pop up, if they haven't already.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Making the basic rules like Active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia should be a no brauner. Pls add this rule

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Absolutely agree that instances featured in http://join-lemmy.org/ should all follow those basic rules:

Active moderation against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia

Concerning to see that both vlemmy.net and lemmy.world are federated with them; I'm mainly on these.

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I expect the moderators of communities to do sufficient policing of their community to make sure it follows the rules of the instance it is on and the rules of that community. If those rules permit something you disagree with (or don't permit something you do want to see) the power is in your hands as a user to not participate or even see that community. The only way for a user to guarantee they won't interact with someone from instance X (whether that is exploding-heads or lemmygrad or whatever you don't like) is to only interact with communities on instances that have them defederated.

I will take action against:

  • Local users harassing someone
  • Local users breaking local rules
  • Local users repeatedly breaking remote rules
  • Local communities that break local instance rules
  • Remote users harassing local users
  • Remote users repeatedly breaking local rules
  • Remote instances that repeatedly allow its users to break local rules
  • Remote instances that repeatedly allow its users to harass my users

The first rule on my instance is a catch-all "Be welcoming", that will be wielded to aggressively remove far more than just "racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia".

As an admin I don't have the time or desire to police:

  • Local users interacting on remote communities, so long as they are following remote rules
  • Remote communities
  • Remote users interacting with remote users/communities

I do hope for a way to better curate (or just disable for now) the "All" feed, at the very least for anyone who isn't logged in. Given the general rules above that feed may include disagreeable posts, and is not a good representation of my instance or the type of community most users there will experience.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I do hope for a way to better curate (or just disable for now) the “All” feed

I really don't want to see that done, because right now that has been my primary method of community discovery, outside of the small number I've discovered through explicit Reddit migrations.

/all should be a feed of everything available to users on your instance. That's...what the word "all" means. Defederating is the way to curate that. An instance being able to block individual communities within another instance could be a good tool to have as well, perhaps, but beyond that I'm not sure I would want to see curation of /all.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

~~Even if these servers federate with exploding heads, the individual servers would still moderate content coming from exploding heads users on their servers, no? I agree that there are clearly a lot of shitty users there, but I have not seen a strong argument from you on how federating with them is a problem. Their content here is actively moderated.~~

~~I could very well be wrong, in which case I will eat my words, but it seems like a bit of an over reaction to me.~~

Just took a quick browse of their instance, eww...

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 years ago

Join an instance that does not allow local communities. Then you can subscribe remotely to whatever you want and block whatever you don't.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 years ago (3 children)

So, dumb question but what is exploding-heads? Are they actual Nazis or like far-right wackos and MAGA nuts?

[–] [email protected] 28 points 2 years ago (3 children)

actual Nazis or like far-right wackos and MAGA nuts

Is there much of a difference nowadays?

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

A little of column A, a little of Columbine

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago

Good to see that my admins already dealt with it.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

ELI5 (because I signed up about an hour ago) - what's wrong with the Exploding Heads instance? I thought about joining up because I suffer from Exploding Head Syndrome (really)

[–] [email protected] 33 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Theyre basically the_Donald: fediverse edition. They troll, raid, and generally cause problems across the threadiverse in the name of promoting their authoritarian world view

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Oh, fuck that. I'm so tired of that shit.

I'm not pro- or anti- either side, but the_donald were dicks.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's not about that they are Christian fundamental fascists

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago

Yeah you know what? I've had enough of fundies, I'll leave that thought there.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

Don't care, my captain already defederated them. Y'all need to pressure your admins to defederate them. An outsider like me ain't gonna influence policies of instances I'm not a member of.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago

Here's the thing, while I don't think Nazi views should be supported this is a general instance and as such there are going to be a lot of shitty people here, Nazi's included. The strength of the fediverse is that we can make our own instance "with blackjack and hookers" so to speak. There are already instances, in fact, that are a lot more strict in who they allow. Again, this is not a support for these views as I don't support hate for anyone. It's the paradox of tolerance dictates that the intolerant will eventually take over, which is why we cannot be tolerant of fascism, hate, Nazi's, etc.

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