Labor will announce home battery rebate in “coming days,” says federal treasurer : australianpolitics

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Hope this'll be better regulated than the pink batts. Otherwise it's not gonna be a good time when people opt for the cheapest batteries and cheapest tradies.

[–] Kanzar 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Statistically, how did the pink batt scheme fall short of your expectations/hopes?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They interviewed this guy in a van on today tonight. /s

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

"You wanna buy some speakers or what? The client ordered them and I can sell em to you now for cheap."

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I am very keen for batteries. We have 20'ish kw of solar and so much is wasted because of export limits. If I could pump all that waste in to a battery to use over the peak period of an afternoon/evening we'd greatly reduce our bills.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Grab a new V2H/V2G charger as they start to come out and add it to an ecar.

https://zecar.com/reviews/bidirectional-v2h-and-v2g-ev-chargers-guide

The batteries on ecars are massive in conparison to home battieries.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Got an EV too - 85kw'ish of battery ready to roll.

Would love to soak it up over peak period, then recharge it overnight at off peak rates. Doing that alone would be a big saving.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/redearth-bidirectional-chargers-mb3054/

Was interested in this one as

Through a partnership agreement with ambibox, RedEarth will produce the devices from its facility at Darra in Brisbane’s south-west suburbs – the first company to manufacture (assemble?) bi-directional chargers locally.

But have to see how it compares

The Ambibox DC Wallbox is a flexible bidirectional charger supporting both V2G and V2H applications. It offers up to 22kW of charging power. It has even been used in experimental setups to enable bidirectional charging in vehicles not originally designed for it—such as the Tesla Model Y. It’s ideal for both residential and commercial use.

This is interesting

The Ambibox unit has been able to successfully discharge energy from several EV models during testing:

Tesla Model Y BYD Atto 3 Polestar 2 Volvo EX30

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

I wonder if this will also include extra subsidies for electric vehicles which support bidirectional charging. Could really help push for an increase in electric vehicle uptake if you can also use it as a battery overnight.

[+] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

grab a BYD var and do this ?

https://zecar.com/reviews/bidirectional-v2h-and-v2g-ev-chargers-guide

[+] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

if one suited

This is why not everyone wants one. EVs are great and I’d love to get one as my next car, but they don’t cover everyone’s needs at every price point, and most people don’t have the ability to charge them at any useful speed thanks to the power infrastructure. There’s also the issue of the second hand market - no one wants to buy a second hand electric car, but most people understand that buying a brand new car is a fools game.

[–] kudra 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I have bought two secondhand electric cars and about to buy my third. Most people still don't understand this isn't quite as risky as it appears.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

It costs half the price of a new EV to replace the battery. Buying a second hand EV means you have no idea how the battery has been treated, and you know the clock is already ticking until you have to shell out a massive amount of $ for a new battery.

[–] kudra 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Have you actually bought a second hand EV?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Why on earth would I do that based on my post?

[–] kudra 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It was a facetious question. Clearly you wouldn't with such misguided preconceptions.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

“Misguided preconceptions” lolololol

Any battery powered device that costs more to replace the battery than it costs to buy a new device is not a smart purchase when it’s close to or outside of its warranty period. The risk is not worth it.

It’s like you don’t even understand the point being made. If a EV battery was good for “the life of the car” (let’s say 350,000km or 20 years) then the warranty would be 350,000km or 20 years, wouldn’t it?

Answer me this - why is the battery warranty 8 years / 100,000km with 70% capacity (or whatever the km limit is, can’t remember off the top of my head)? Why don’t they guarantee it for 15 years? 20 years?

[–] kudra 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

An incorrect assumption you have made is that batteries fail at a higher rate than major components on an ICE car. It’s a misunderstanding of the relative risk. Like how people hop in their car every day no worries but are afraid to fly.

Also is 100,000 miles or 160,000 km, not 100,000 km as the current warranty standard. And like any new technology, they really don't know exactly how long they are going to last, so at this stage manufacturers are hedging their bets.

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/new-data-reveals-the-battery-life-in-used-electric-vehicles/

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/news/assurances-on-battery-health-could-boost-used-ev-sales-report/

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Again missing the point. My assumption wasn’t that batteries fail at a higher rate than “major components” on an ICE car - it was that if/when the battery fails it’s exponentially more expensive than any component failing on a ICE car.

If you buy a $50k ICE car and the entire engine dies out of warranty (which isn’t what happens generally, just parts of it would), a whole new engine will cost you probably $3k-$4k installed. Battery dies out of warranty on a $50k EV? ~$20k to replace……for a car that’s worth probably $10k by then.

Do you see the difference? One means you literally send the car to the wreckers and have no car, the other means you’re back on the road in the same car a week or 2 later.

[–] kudra 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You are lowballing the cost of replacing an engine significantly: it MIGHT be as low as $3000, it could be over $10,000. You also are completely ignoring the plethora of moving parts in an ICE vehicle that can fail. The drivetrain in an ICE vehicle contains 2,000+ moving parts typically, whereas the drivetrain in an EV contains around 20. This makes for a massive reduction in maintenance costs over the lifetime of the vehicle, which you also don't take into consideration in total cost of ownership.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/2018/09/06/seven-reasons-why-the-internal-combustion-engine-is-a-dead-man-walking-updated/

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A new engine for a 7+ year old out of warranty car that cost as much as a mass market EV is NOT going to cost you $10k.

And yes, there are more parts in conventional cars, but most parts are cheap to repair/replace. There’s no $20k part that WILL need replacing like there is in a EV. There’s no part that will make your car get less mileage every year.

[–] kudra 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Where is this guy egregiously wrong, in your opinion?

https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/Lk7fWVIEVX

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Saying that on average a EV battery will last you 400k miles for one lol.

There’s also the fact that it will need to be charged more and more frequently the older the car gets, as battery capacity reduces.

Then there’s the fact that one is a twin turbo performance car, the other is a family car.

Also the fact that electricity prices have been absolutely soaring the last few years, with no end in sight, while petrol prices have remained static for years.

[–] kudra 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (12 children)

I think that's already been proven, at least in the case of Teslas, that the batteries DO actually last that long on average?

Batteries that lose range but still functioning generally are being swapped out but then sold as house batteries, still incredibly useful and bigger than most house batteries. So they are not a total loss and largely still functioning. Newer battery systems allow swap out of individual cells.

If you look in the comments, someone swapped out the BMW to a cheap ICE car and the Tesla was still cheaper, lol.

I don't know where you are but electricity prices here have been going down as we add more renewables to the grid - there's a lot of volatility, but the overall trend is not increasing. State by state there is a huge difference in fuel mix, and wholesale prices generally peak in winter during higher demand. If you are talking about retail prices, you can be smart about that and work out what is best for your use case, I am with Amber which gives direct access to wholesale prices with a flat daily access fee slightly higher than most providers, but my neighbour who was off grid realised they could get much better value especially in winter through one provider with a very cheap overnight rate - they have a Tesla and fairly fast AC charging at home, and makes more sense for them as they drive more than me. I have a second hand EV with an upgraded 30kwh battery that has not really lost noticeable range in the almost 3 years I've owned it. Most EV owners have solar, and mostly charge for less or free from home - I'm one of them.

https://www.aer.gov.au/industry/registers/charts/quarterly-volume-weighted-average-spot-prices-regions

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

@Whirlybird @kudra
The condition of a used EV depends on how it's been treated. EVs are not alone in that.

In general, the battery of a modern EV can be expected to last for the useful life of the vehicle. "... scientists discovered that battery replacements were very rare, with only about 1.5 percent of EVs needing a replacement – and almost all of those replacements were under warranty."
https://www.greencars.com/expert-insights/research-shows-ev-battery-replacements-very-rare

#ElectricVehicles
#EVbatteries

[–] kudra 0 points 1 month ago

Correct, new EVs have even better batteries than first gen too. My first EV I replaced the battery, but not because they're was anything wrong with it: that battery likely would have lasted at least twice as long, but an enterprising engineer created a battery upgrade that doubled the original range in the same footprint, and we can expect further improvements in batteries, so I expect to upgrade again in future, maybe 10-15 years, and double the range again.

Old EV batteries can be reused and make ideal off grid house batteries.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A small study by a pro EV company, reported on by a pro EV site......yeah nah lol.

The warranty is what matters. Unless an EV is 10% of its sale price, if it's even within 2 years of its warranty on the battery ending it's no deal. Might it last 10 years past the warranty retaining ~70% of its capacity? Sure. It's possible. Could it also just drop dead at the drop of a hat, or capacity just drop like a rock? Absolutely. One of those scenarios will cost you almost the price of a new car, the other won't.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yet you can only assert your belief @Whirlybird
Even a little trustworthy evidence would enhance your credibility.

"... generally, EV batteries are designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle ..."
https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/when-do-ev-batteries-need-to-be-replaced

I can keep providing references all day, if you want.

#ElectricVehicles
#EVbatteries

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

And that lifetime is what, 8 years according to their warranty?

You can provide references for whatever you want, but like I said - the warranty is what matters. If the manufacturer warranty is for x years, anything after that is not guaranteed and is a massive risk because of how expensive the replacement is. This isn't hard to understand.

You might think there's no risk in buying an electric car that's out of warranty (or approaching the end of its warranty), but the tens of thousands of dollars you'd have to pay to replace the battery 1/2/5 years down the track says otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

@Whirlybird
The average warranty for internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles varies depending on the manufacturer and region, but typically falls within the range of 3 to 7 years, with some up to 10.
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/best-car-warranties-revealed-118462/
So you're saying that ICE vehicles typically last 10 years or less.

There are risks in buying anything, new or used. The warranty is just a limited guarantee.

It used to be said of ICE vehicles that they'd never replace the horse. The big problem being that you can't grow the fuel.

With EVs, at least power points are pretty common. That wasn't the case for petrol stations, back in the day.

It's a management issue. The adaptable survived. You're just proving that you're not a survivor.

https://afma.org.au/new-ev-batteries-may-last-beyond-vehicle-lifetime-study/

#ElectricVehicles
#EVbatteries

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A EV battery replacement is multiples of times more expensive than an engine replacement on basically any non-supercar lol.

You've made some bad arguments but that one knocks it out of the park.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

@Whirlybird
Except that EV batteries rarely need replacement. As I've proven time and time again.

Clearly, you have a belief system that is not supported by reality.

https://www.electrichybridvehicletechnology.com/news/uk-research-shows-evs-now-match-lifespan-of-ice-vehicles.html

#ElectricVehicles
#EVbatteries

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Except when they don’t, at which time you’ll be out of pocket tens of thousands of dollars.

People like you are insufferable. EVs are awesome, but they’re not perfect and they’re a much bigger risk buying second hand.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

@Whirlybird
Nothing's perfect. The survivors are those who can work with reality.

The fact that you're unable to substantiate you assertions repeatedly proves my point.

https://www.energyandclimate.qld.gov.au/energy/vehicles-and-energy/electric-vehicles/fact-check#battery-lifespan
#ElectricVehicles
#EVbatteries

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago

Most new EVs come with an 8-year battery warranty, which guarantees they will retain at least 70% of their original capacity

So again, anyone buying an EV that is close to or older than 8 years old is taking a massive financial risk. Every link you post confirms this yet you think it’s proving your point lol

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

@Whirlybird @DropBear Whirlybird that’s Bulls..t and now you are blocked.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 month ago

What’s bullshit?

[–] kudra 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I think it's taking longer for bidirectional to be legal in most parts of Australia, though that might be happening soon. V2G is going to be a game changer for reducing dependence on coal, can't come soon enough!

[–] kudra 1 points 1 month ago

Haha just read the article, it's great to see the approval but appalling we apparently have zero compatible cars. I have a JDM grey import with Chademo and that tech has been bidirectional for over a decade. So dumb.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Hopefully they’re decent rebates on decent battery systems, and not means tested so only the low income earners would qualify (but couldn’t afford anyway).

Every year I run the numbers to see if it makes sense to get batteries, and every year it doesn’t. Would love to go completely off grid.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Apparently the subsidy requires you to be connected to a "virtual power plant" plan with your energy company, which means that they control when your battery feeds back in to the grid or can be used by you. This is pretty much a deal breaker for me and should be for most people.

What it means is that the power company could force your battery to send its power to the grid at peak times, meaning any power you use comes from the grid, and your battery gets drained without them paying you a cent. It means that you could potentially not save a single cent on your power bill, while saving the power company money.

[–] kudra 2 points 1 month ago

I'm with Amber, and while I don't have a battery yet, their VPP offering does appear different to most. I'd be wanting to check the conditions if this goes ahead as I would not want to sign up if I wasn't allowed to control when power is sent to to the grid.

https://help.amber.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/7415148284685-What-is-Amber-s-SmartShift-and-how-does-it-differ-from-a-VPP

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