this post was submitted on 24 Mar 2025
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I would understand if Canonical want a new cow to milk, but why are developers even agreeing to this? Are they out of their minds?? Do they actually want companies to steal their code? Or is this some reverse-uno move I don't see yet? I cannot fathom any FOSS project not using the AGPL anymore. It's like they're painting their faces with "here, take my stuff and don't contribute anything back, that's totally fine"

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 days ago

fyi: GNU coreutils are licensed GPL, not AGPL.

there is so much other confusion in this thread, i can't even 🤦

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Or on the flip side, they want usage to be pervasive so they win. I mean come on man it's like "move this file" and "make this directory".

these applications aren't rocket science and providing them under a license that people will use outside of the hardcore Linux space is just good marketing.

[–] [email protected] 100 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (5 children)

The unfortunate reality is that a significant proportion of software engineers (and other IT folks) are either laissez-faire "libertarians" who are ideologically opposed to the restrictions in the GPL, or "apolitical" tech-bros who are mostly just interested in their six figure paychecks and fancy toys.

To these folks, the MIT/BSD licenses have fewer restrictions, and are therefore more free, and are therefore more better.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 3 days ago

Add to this, the constant badmouthing of GNU and FSF from the crony bootlickers and sadly this is what we get

The tech crowd is also more of a consumer kind these days than the hacky kind, so it's much easier to push corporate shite with a little bit of polish on top

[–] [email protected] 35 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (3 children)

it's interesting how the move away from the gpl is never explicitly justified as a license issue: instead, people always have some plausible technical motivation. with clang/llvm it was the lower compile times and better error messages; with these coreutils it's "rust therefore safer". the license change was never even addressed

i believe they have to do this exactly bc permissive licenses appeal to libertarian/apolitical types who see themselves as purely rational and changing a piece of software bc of the license would sound too... ideological...

so the people in charge of these changes always have a plausible technical explanation at hand to mask away the political aspect of the change

[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 days ago (5 children)

The rust coreutils project choosing the MIT license is just another gambit to allow something like android or chromeos happen to gnu+linux, where all of the userland gets replaced by proprietary junk.

And yet that's a popularly welcomed approach, for some reason. Just look at the number of thumbs down this has. https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/issues/1781

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yeah, that's all there's to it, along with pure ignorance. In a past not so ideologically developed life, I've written code under Apache 2 because it was "more free." Understanding licenses, their implications, the ideologies behind them and their socioeconomic effects isn't trivial. People certainly aren't born educated in those, and often they reach for the code editor before that.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Freedom for the rich and powerful to fuck over society and everyone else!

[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

"apolitical" tech-bros who are mostly just interested in their six figure paychecks and fancy toys.

This, I understand.

laissez-faire "libertarians" who are ideologically opposed to the restrictions in the GPL

This, I do not. Apologies for my tone in the next paragraph but I'm really pissed off (not directed at you):

WHAT RESTRICTIONS???? IF YOU LOT HAD EVEN A SHRED OF SYMPATHY FOR THE COMMUNITY YOU WOULD HAVE BOYCOTTED THE MIT AND APACHE LICENSE BY NOW. THIS IS EQUIVALENT TO HANDING CORPORATIONS YOUR WORK AND BEGGING THEM TO SCREW OVER YOUR WORK AND THE FOSS COMMUNITY.

I feel a bit better but not by much. This makes me vomit.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I write code for a living. I cannot, by any means, utilize a GPL library to support the needs of our customers and will either have to write my own replacement or dig to find something with less restrictions like MIT.

On many occasions, we will find bugs or usage gaps or slowdowns that can get pushed back to the MIT licensed open source cause we were able to use it in the first place. If your goal is to make sure your library gets used and gets external contributors, I don't see how GPL helps the situation as it limits what developers can even choose your library in the first place. If your goal is spreading the ideology that all software should be free, go keep banging your drum for GPL.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Thank you for your work. If people like you were all around us, then I wouldn't mind as much projects using MIT since we would still see contributions. But I doubt there's that many people out there like you. Thank you for contributing to FOSS.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

Like 80% of the top 10 most contributed libraries on github are either MIT, Apache, or BSD. I think you underestimate how many corpo folks do contribute or wholly support open source libraries.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Since you seem so reasonable…

The restriction that some people object to is that the GPL restricts the freedom of the software developers (the people actually writing and contributing the code).

Most people would agree at first glance that developers should be able to license code that they write under whatever license they like. MIT is one option. Some prefer the GPL. Most see the right to choose a proprietary license for your own work as ok but some people describe this as unethical. I personally see all three as valid. I certainly think the GPL should be one of the options.

That said, if we are talking about code that already exists, the GPL restricts freedom without adding any that MIT does not also provide.

MIT licensed software is “free software” by definition. Once something has been MIT licensed, it is Open Source and cannot be taken away.

The MIT license provides all of the Free Software Foundations “4 freedoms”. It also provides freedoms that the GPL does not.

What the MIT license does not provide is guaranteed access to “future” code that has not yet been written. That is, in an MIT licensed code base, you can add new code that is not free. In a GPL code base, this is not possible.

So, the GPL removes rights from the developers in that it removes the right to license future code contributions as you want. Under the GPL, the right of users to get future code for free is greater than the right of the developer to license their future contributions. Some people do not see that as a freedom. Some even see it as quite the opposite (forced servitude). This “freedom” is not one of the “4 freedoms” touted by the FSF but it is the main feature of the GPL.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

developers should be able to license code that they write under whatever license they like

What if they choose a license that limits the freedom from all other developers to improve that copy of the software? is allowing a developer to restrict further development actually good for the freedom of the developers? Because I would say no.

The spirit of the GPL is to give freedom to the developers and hackers (in the good sense of hacker). The chorus of the Free Software Song by Stallman is "you'll be free hackers, you'll be free".

the GPL restricts freedom without adding any that MIT does not also provide

"Your freedom ends when the freedom of others begins"

The only "freedom" the GPL restricts is the freedom to limit the freedom of other developers/hackers that want to edit the software you distribute. This is in the same spirit as having laws against slavery that restrict the "freedom" of people to take slaves.

Would a society that allows oppression (that has no laws against it) be more "free" than a society that does not allow oppression (with laws to guarantee the freedom of others is respected)?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

For me, my personal projects are generally MIT licensed. I generally don't like "restrictions" on licenses, even if those "restrictions" are requiring others to provide their source and I want as many people to use my projects as possible, I don't like to restrict who uses it, even if it's just small/home businesses who don't want to publish the updated source code. Although, I admit, I'm not a huge fan of large corporations potentially using my code to generate a profit and do evil things with it, but I also think that's not going to be very common versus the amount of use others could get from it by having it using MIT who might not be able to use it otherwise with AGPL.

With that said, though, I have been starting to come around more to AGPL these days.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I wohld agree, because you really downplay the scenario.

As soon as you accidentallt create something, which everyone starts to use or has an use case, then some Cooperation will copy that thing, make it better and make your community dissappear because there is the newer tool which you cant change the code of anymore and need to use a monthly subscription or something to even use.

So, it somehow seems like you're gaslighting yourself by downplaying the use case.

Mostly it will be small buisnesses and hobbyists, which I would like to code for them too. Especially when they are nice and friendly. But as soon as Microsoft, Google, Meta, Amazon gets hands on it and sees a potential to squeeze money through it by destroying it, then they will surely do it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

This can happen.

The flip side is noone uses it. I've never worked at any company that allowed even lgpl code to be used. If it has a commercial license we'll buy it, if not...find another tool.

Lawyers are terrified of gpl and will do anything to avoid going to court over it, including forcing you to rip code out and do a clean room rewrite.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

Its simple: its to exploit it in a corporate setting. I license under MIT because a lot of my things are of small convenience, but never without debating the ethics of why I am licensing it.

GNU is the enemy to capitalism and if you need more proof, look at what Apple has done with LLVM/Clang and CUPS. We need GNU more than ever.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 days ago

I understand that if your boss tells you to write MIT/Proprietary code, you do so. I just wish that the ones who had a choice would use GPL

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 days ago

Canonical still licenses most of their stuff under GPL3, including new stuff. The license (other than it being open) was probably not even a consideration in deciding to experiment with uutils.

[–] phlegmy 10 points 2 days ago (7 children)

If you're developing software for a platform that doesn't allow users to replace dynamic libraries (game consoles, iOS, many embedded/commercial systems), you won't be able to legally use any GPL or AGPL libraries.

While I strongly agree with the motives behind copyleft licenses, I personally never use them because I've had many occasions where I was unable to use any available library for a specific task because they all had incompatible licenses.

I release code for the sole purpose of allowing others to use it. I don't want to impose any restrictions on my fellow developers, because I understand the struggle it can bring.

Even for desktop programs, I prefer MIT or BSD because it allows others to take snippets of code without needing to re-license anything.

Yes I understand that means anyone can make a closed-source fork, but that doesn't bother me.
If I wanted to sell it I might care, but I would have used a different license for a commercial project anyway.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

There is a big difference between what someone says they are doing vs why they are actually doing it

[–] [email protected] 28 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (10 children)

it's been a trend for a while unfortunately. getting rid of the gpl is the motivation behind e.g. companies sponsoring clang/llvm so hard right now. there are also the developers that think permissive licenses are "freer" bc freedom is doing whatever you want /s. they're ideologically motivated to ditch the gpl so they'll support the change even if there's no benefit for them, financial or otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 days ago

getting rid of the gpl is the motivation behind e.g. companies sponsoring clang/llvm so hard right now

And there it is. Follow the money.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Here's a fun idea, let's fork these MIT-based projects and licence them under the AGPL :-)

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago (4 children)

You could do that. MIT is a very free license.

Of course, that would only be a useful thing to do if you were also going to contribute to the code.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Honestly it's probably just because so many devs are involved more in their code and don't want to worry about the nuances and headaches involved in licensing. MIT is still open source.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

I guess I can't really fault that. Developers not interested in the license they use to publish code baffles me

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