Editorial: A president just disrespected America in the Oval Office. It wasn’t Zelensky : world

[–] [email protected] 127 points 3 days ago (3 children)

I don't usually get upset by world news. I was genuinely upset about what happened today.

I cannot imagine being in Zelensky's position, having the future of his country depend on how skilled he can be at placating a bunch of mean children who are needling him with ridiculous lies in front of the entire planet and then yelling at him when he pushes back. And probably beating himself up (as the press will surely do) about how, in hindsight, he should have done a better job. Not that Trump should have done something different: That he should have.

Fuck 'em. Sure, in a theoretical sense, it's true. But it's not even the point. The bullying nature of the whole setup, to make it "his fault" when everything blows up because of Trump and Vance's cruel posturing, is the point.

I just sent Ukraine's defense ministry some money: https://u24.gov.ua/ and click on "donate now" in the top right corner.

Fuck 'em up, guys. These assholes do not represent us.

[–] heavydust 65 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I’m not usually interested in Trump because he’s always stupid on his Truth Social thing, but insulting another president that he invited as a guest in front of cameras and in the Oval Office? I don’t think there has been a biggest shit show so far.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

And yet I found it completely predictable.

Trump is so goddamn American: a boorish bully who thinks they’re the best when really he’s a fat idiot.

We absolutely deserve him. It’s a shame he’ll hurt other countries.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Anyone who has to stop the whole conversation to lecture the other participant about how they need to be showing more respect right now, is almost invariably a piece of shit.

People who genuinely earn respect don't feel the need to instruct people in how to show it and correct them on it if they aren't.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 3 days ago

one of the most annoying parts is they kept asking him questions, tons and tons of questions, berating him from running and hiding from the questions, but the literal second he would try to answer or say anything, they'd just yell over him and cut him off. it is almost painful to watch.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

...america's credibility is permanently destroyed until it institutes structural changes to insulate national policy from his like: america will suffer worst of all for its capitulation to russian disinformation...

[–] [email protected] 31 points 3 days ago

If you don't count Jan 6.

Even then it's waaaayyy up there. And that's saying something, he's a shitshow factory.

[–] [email protected] 34 points 3 days ago (1 children)

One small plus is at least this behaviour is being displayed to the world, so people can see exactly what Trumps like to deal with.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You know that entire spectacle was staged.

They put President Zelensky in a position to be unable to refuse this ambush. They planned to gang up on, bully, and humiliate him on camera, and then go viral with “kicking him out of the White House”. His maggots love this shit show.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

They were hoping to provoke him into losing his temper in way they could point to as being him refusing peace. Trump wants to create a narrative to spin his allying with Russia as something other than a blatant unilateral betrayal, and Zelenskyy denied him that.

(Don't get me wrong: Trump will claim it anyway, but with even less credibility than he would have had if his bullying had been successful.)

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Trump has been doing it to everyone else, just lie to the press about basic facts. Both Macron and Starmer managed to politely correct him without triggering Trump. Zelensky was trying to do the same, but Vance couldn't shut his mouth and decided to try and show to Trump he was a good boy. And once it got to that stage, Zelensky couldn't really back down.

At least he's awakened something in Europe now where everyone's basically said they've got his back. He could probably get a better deal from Europe, because from what I've read the current deal has been described as worse than the Versailles treaty, which is probably not something you want to impose on a country that already has a bunch of armed Nazis running around in it.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago

Both Macron and Starmer managed to politely correct him without triggering Trump. Zelensky was trying to do the same, but Vance couldn’t shut his mouth and decided to try and show to Trump he was a good boy.

Well, yeah: why else did you think they added Vance? Trump is getting too old and tired for his bullying to be effective enough on its own, so they sent in his minion to make sure the job got done.

You say "Vance couldn't shut his mouth" as if you think this was some kind of mistake or gaffe on his part, but no. Vance did exactly what he meant to do, on purpose. Or at least tried his damnedest, even if he wasn't completely successful in getting Zelenskyy to take the bait.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Right there with you. These fucking fascist idiots make me sick. Also with you on the united24 giving.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Yeah. It makes me feel physically ill when I think of it. I'm not even joking. It's mostly not even anger, although there is that, it's just a sick wrong feeling inside.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The other day, I had a call with my mother. We're pretty close, and the discussion turned to politics - a topic I don't bring up, because I know my interest in it far outstrips her's. Mostly calm - she's conservative, but also moderately anti-Trump - she didn't vote for him in the past two elections.

Two things that stood out:

When my mother wondered aloud why we weren't doing more to stand up to Russia, I paused, and felt a surge of... anger? Despair? Laughing madness? all through my body and especially in my head.
When I talked about Ukraine, I could hardly speak by the end.

Ukrainians are under the utmost pressure, and have been for years, and for us to backstab them like this is...

Atrocious.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yeah. It's fucking heartbreaking.

We've done these things before. We did it to the Kurds and the Afghans, we're doing it to the Palestinians on an ongoing basis. But this feels different. We are the world's enemy.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 days ago

I know exactly how you mean. I had to walk around and breathe.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 3 days ago (3 children)

1st off not an American

I have spent the last 8 years listening to how terrible trump is from Americans. When the actual fuck are you going to do something about it.

Either do shit about it or own the fact that America is a rouge state that the rest of the world can deal with appropriately. I'm equal parts bored of you and terrified of what you will allow to happen next

[–] [email protected] 26 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Dude, we're fucking trying.

I wrote letters to voters trying to keep this guy out of office, I donated money, I hassled friends and family to get them to vote, I wrote letters to my congress people. I've been to one protest so far, which is not enough. I argue with people in person about politics and I shitpost on Lemmy, which seems like a waste of time electoral-outcome-wise, but I think the wild success the Russian troll farms are having kind of implies that there's at least a little bit of impact from it.

I think this weekend I will apply for some jobs outside the US. I can't stand the idea of my taxes going to help all this bullshit happen. I have no idea how much if any I will follow through on that kind of thing, but I've been thinking about it anyway, and this was a hell of a kick in the pants to motivate it. It is probably better for my safety, to be honest, anyway.

I'm not asking for a medal from you for any of that of course. I get it. But also, helping us fix our democracy is going to be a better and safer way for the rest of the world than is trying to come after us as a "rogue state." That kind of problem is still in our wheelhouse, and is likely to remain so for the most part even as Trump tears apart all the rest of it.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Dude, we're fucking trying.

No, we're not. Not really. Really trying, at this point, requires thinking beyond "electoral outcomes."

If you were asked what Russians should do to stop Putin, would your answer be electoralism?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

You're going to lecture me about how trying to stop Trump from winning in November was not important, because it is "electoralism?" Please tell me that's not what you are saying. It sounds like that's what you are saying.

I am clearly including activities outside of "electoral outcomes" in what I am saying, and don't need any sanctimonious reminders about them. You can read back, if you missed it. Lecturing me about how electoral outcomes are unimportant, in the wake of what's happening right now, deserves some kind of every-single-person-in-the-audience-smacking-their-forehead gif.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

This right here is the problem. Literally a perfect example.

Fucking look at you two. We bicker and fight amongst each other. Please, for the love of God. STOP BICKERING.

If we want anything to change, we are first going to have to accept the fact that we’re all in this together.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

We're clearly both capable of having a normal discussion, I think, and have now started to do so. Strong feelings on this type of topic are okay. Just because we're together doesn't mean we need to agree 100%. It is ok. I definitely didn't come here to bicker, and I think neither did the other person. Look at the nature of all our other comments.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Please tell me that’s not what you are saying. It sounds like that’s what you are saying.

Holy shit, that's not at all what I was saying!

I have no idea why you thought it was, considering that I was speaking in the present tense (i.e. about February, not November), but yeah: the election was incredibly important and the failure of some Americans to comprehend that basic fact resulted in a catastrophe for which I will never, ever forgive them.

Wait -- did you think I was the person upthread that you replied to? 'Cause FYI, I'm not.

What my point actually was is that we, COLLECTIVELY, are not doing enough to stop Trump. You, personally, may not need any "sanctimonious reminders," but the citizenry at large sure as fuck does! When you write things like "we're fucking trying" -- speaking for all of us, not just yourself -- don't you agree that it rings a bit hollow?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You used the word "electoralism" as a pejorative. In my experience, that is associated 100% of the time with being opposed to voting in elections. Also, most of what you described as "not really trying" that I described was referring specifically to trying to stop Trump getting elected.

Stopping Trump from getting elected would have been the easiest and safest way, by far, to stop all this ongoing nightmare from happening. If my interpretation of your reply was wrong, and you're agreeing that trying to stop Trump from getting elected was incredibly important, and a good thing, then sure. Surely you can understand how I could have gotten some other impression, though.

If you have ideas for what to do now, I'm all ears. Protest sounds good, strikes and boycotts sound good, spreading truth and standing up for the forces of "2 + 2 = 4" sounds good, but that's about all I can think of that I think will take things in the right direction, and it all doesn't sound likely to succeed any time soon.

When you write things like “we’re fucking trying” – speaking for all of us, not just yourself – don’t you agree that it rings a bit hollow?

I didn't mean everyone in the US. A lot of us are though, a lot of them more than me. I get that it could have come across as talking about all the people here and that it's pretty hollow. That's why I explicitly said that I get it, and I don't want a medal or a cookie for any of it, because it's pretty cold comfort for someone in some other place who wasn't involved who is now also staring down the barrel. That part of it, I get.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

You used the word “electoralism” as a pejorative. In my experience, that is associated 100% of the time with being opposed to voting in elections.

Elections work until a country votes in a dictator who destroys all the checks and balances, and then they stop working. That's how it went down in the Weimar Republic, that's how it went down in post-Soviet Russia, and, well, [gestures broadly].

Go check my comment history if you want -- before the election, I was very emphatic about the importance of voting for Harris, and fucking kept my mouth shut about even valid criticism of the Democrats that could harm that goal. But it's not before the election anymore, is it?

Circumstances change, and when they do, our arguments and tactics have to change with them if we want to succeed (or indeed, if we want merely to not be crushed under the heel of jackboots). In February 2025, talking about voting is basically irrelevant, with the sole exception of keeping "pound some fucking sense into the Democratic Party before the midterms" on our to-do list (just on the off chance the process hasn't been completely subverted by the fascists by then). But everything else on that list has fuck-all to do with elections.

There's a huge gulf between what we're doing now (e.g. ranging from complying like Hakeem "what leverage do we actually have" Jeffries, to today's 24-hour economic boycott), and the sorts of actions that would actually be necessary to defeat the MAGAs. That's the reality us Americans are living in right now, whether we like it or not. The sooner we get through our stages of grief about it, the better off we'll be.

If you have ideas for what to do now, I’m all ears. Protest sounds good, strikes and boycotts sound good, spreading truth and standing up for the forces of “2 + 2 = 4” sounds good, but that’s about all I can think of that I think will take things in the right direction, and it all doesn’t sound likely to succeed any time soon.

Let's see: I'm from lemmy.world, you're from ponder.cat, and we're talking in quokk.au... what are the governing ToS and rules, again? I need to figure that out before I can answer.

Maybe I'll put it this way: if you buy into the narrative you were taught in school about MLK and Gandhi and whatnot, think again. What your teachers didn't tell you is that "peaceful" movements like theirs only ever succeeded because they were able to present themselves as the moderate alternative to a radical flank, and those radicals were the ones who had done the work of shifting the Overton window.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

Damn. That's the best & smartest writing I've read this week.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

While I appreciate everything your doing. The reality as I see it is your in the minority. Until that changes America is fucked and destined to bring us l down with you.

I get and agree "not America" should be able to stand without you. Your political body has spent my life time at least working against that.

I will admit that I'm exceeding frustrated with the situation i have less than fuck all control over while living within your dead range of 2 high priority nuke targets when w3 kicks off again because America felt the need to elect a retarded monkey as president while posting old man dream is the good old days

Edit. Honestly I'm half the age of these old cunt in charge and all I want to do is leave the world in a better place for my granddaughter than I found it. That the hell is wrong with these assholes and their supporters

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Even if you get a job outside the US, if you keep citizenship, you will still be charged taxes.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

True, but according to what I just became an expert on two minutes ago, you can file form 2555 and deduct the first $130k of your wages, and all your housing expenses on top of that. It sounds like working abroad means you still have to keep in touch, but your tax burden is likely to become minimal as long as you're legit not maintaining a presence in the US.

It's all still theoretical as applied to me personally. And there is still the big decision of "flee to safety" versus "stay and fight."

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 days ago

Yeah, from what I recall, you can deduct whatever you pay in the other country in taxes, so unless you moved to Monaco that's going to be higher anyway.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

A couple people have tried. The problem is, the deck is stacked against us, and most Americans aren't yet feeling the squeeze.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Sadly that's the problem. Too many are ateast indifferent to the current status

And like Germany in ww2 no one will remember the we tried crowed. You will just be remembered as a facist country

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago

I don't think this is true. People remember Sophie Scholl. People remember the French resistance. People remember the Warsaw ghetto uprising. And people remember Pétain, too, and what happened to Mussolini once "his" people got sick of it all.

[–] TacoButtPlug 4 points 3 days ago

As an American, I feel the exact same. I hope this country implodes on top of the masses. Today we were supposed to boycott and one of my coworkers bought a dress online through Amazon, another bought gas and concert tickets, and my piece of shit in-laws invited themselves on a six hour road trip to my city without my consent. I'm done. Fuck every single person here.

[+] AlecSadler 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago

From now on I boycott US products. A communist in the office will ruin your country. it is time for the EU to look for new partners.

World News